Layering rock guitars 101

...you will be even better off with an actual amp, mic, and proper interface. Even the mic'd sound of a solid state Crate practice amp sounds better to me than an amp sim. Just my opinion tho. Best is a hard driven tube amp breaking into the sweet spot where the speakers themselves start adding the desired tone. This is where magic happens. :)

I was surprised to see that I had gone three pages into this thread before anyone mentioned amplifiers. If you (the original poster) are new-ish to this forum, I *highly* recommend following Jimmys69's advice; he is the most consistently "right" contributor to this forum, at least as far as I've seen and in my own humble opinion. He knows his shit.

That being said, I will give you some advice but you must keep in mind that I do NOT use plug-in/software amp simulators, so I don't have much advice to give in terms of that. Actually none at all. However, I *love* layering guitars and do it rather frequently, but I always use an amp and a mic. You will always get the best results that way in terms of a single guitar track, but you will *MOST DEFINITELY* get the best results with an amp and a mic when layering guitars.

I haven't seen much from the OP regarding what you will use the stacked guitars for (rhythm tracks, leads...?), nor what the end goal is. So I'm kinda flying blind here but hopefully some of what I write here will be useful to you.

Most of the time, when I'm layering guitar tracks, it's to flesh out/thicken a rhythm track. Exactly how you mult (layer) the guitar tracks depends on what aspect of the guitar part yer trying to enhance or accent.

For example, if I'm layering a guitar track on a tune that is mid-tempo (think 95-110 BPM) and has a slightly distorted tone but I want to emphasize the "ringy" or "jangly" sound of the higher strings, I'll find a solid tone that would work without any layering and track it. Then, I'll change something in the tone to bring out the "chiming" of the high strings. Sometimes that means something as simple as switching from the neck pickup on the guitar to the bridge pickup; other times it might mean switching out the guitar or the amp, or maybe adding a stompbox to the chain. Sometimes I'll adjust the EQ on the mult track. Maybe the solution is as simple as opening the tone pot on the guitar all the way.

The point is, if you want to achieve a thicker, fuller, wider, bigger sound via layering guitars, then make sure each guitar track has a slightly different sound; this will create a HUGE sound that boosts certain frequencies and cuts others. And as I've seen a lot of peeps post on this thread, panning the layered guitars is KEY. Where the tracks sit within the stereo spectrum is a major part of layering guitar tracks to expand the sound.

If you want to get *REALLY* crazy, you can use the method Alice in Chains used to track all the guitars on their second album, "Dirt." Their guitarist, Jerry Cantrell (who I had the pleasure of meeting at the release party for their 2010 album...but that's a whole other story..haha), did some CRAZY shit while recording "Dirt." Each guitar track was recorded three times, such that three tracks made ONE single track. What he did was he used different speaker sizes: the first pass would be through a large speaker, like a 12" or 15"; the second pass would go through a mid-sized speaker, like a 6" or 8"; then the last one would be through a small speaker, like a tweeter. This allowed them to control various aspects of the tone from section to section within a song, and it also allowed them to process (effects/EQ/compression, etc.) different parts of the frequency spectrum of the guitar as they saw fit. And if you listen to that record, the guitars are HUGE. Just enormous.

The only hard & fast rule here is that in order to achieve a fuller guitar sound via layering, you *MUST* play a new track. You can't just copy & paste the original track and change the tone; it just doesn't work that way. You need the subtle differences in the different performances to really achieve the "thicker" effect. This is especially true where vocals are concerned, but it's also true for guitars...but vocal multing is a topic for a different thread. :)

Hope that helped.
 
Get a real interface......The Zoom R24 or R16 are very user friendly and budget friendly.

As for layering distorted guitars, my initial method is as follows (I say initial because I always start with this method and then tweak it as deemed necessary by the song and my ears):

I record the first track through a Boss GT-3 amp simulator (there are many others out there that most will say are better, but this is what I have). I adjust the parameters of the patch to get the sound I'm after. There is usually a fair amount of record - listen to playback - tweak parameters - record - listen -tweak - record- etc until I'm happy with the sound. I don't use any reverbs or compression or the like on the recording patch. Just Amp sim, cabinet sim, Over Drive and EQ. I don't necessarily use all of those everytime, but they're the only parameters I use. I add compression/reverb/delay/etc. after recording via VST plugins. Once I'm happy with the tone, I record the first rhythm track.

Now I record the second track. I listen to the first track first and try to identify what would be a nice complimentary sound to the first track. I'll usually change the Over Drive setting slightly and change the EQ slightly from the first track. Again, there's a fair amount of record - listen - tweak that occurs here. Once I'm satisfied with the sound of how the second track's tone works with the first track's....I record the second track.

I usually pan track 1 65% to the left and track 2 65% to the right as a starting point.

I usually write automation for track 2 to achieve my overall goal....An example would be......Track 2 muted for first 8 measures(or however many the chord progression is) then unmute track 2 as the chord progression starts again. The first progression will be primarily left as a sort-of intro and then it gets very full as the right channel comes in. I leave this setting alone until the vocals start. At the start of the vocals, I write the automation so that Track 2's volume decreases by roughly 50% (as a starting point) to "make room" for the vocals. When the Chorus starts, I write Track 2's automation to increase it's volume to match Track 1 and it makes the Chorus "pop" a little. The whole time I'm doing this, I'm using my ears as a judge and I make any changes necessary.

This works for me.....There are many here that will have other (probably better.....much, much better) methods but this is what works for me. It is the result of just diving in and experimenting.....Learning what works and, just as important, what doesn't work. Experimenting has also yielded results that don't work for the particular song I'm working on, but, gave me ideas for other songs that I have recorded.

As a hobbyist, trial and error via experimenting has given me a lot of insight into what techniques, equipment and settings yield what sounds. Now....when I want a particular sound....I usually have a decent starting point based on things I've discovered by experimenting.

Again....this technique works for me....YMMV.
 
Man, that's awesome. "Dirt" is one of my favorite sounding albums--especially "Rain When I Die". Thanks for the info.

So, without using an actual amp & mic, is there a way to emulate Cantrell's 3-tone method? (Yes, I know it won't be as good as the real thing, but surely it would get me closer than not trying...)
 
Thanks for the layering tips, very useful.

Okay, so you--and several others here--have now convinced me to look for an interface. I quickly Googled the Zoom R24 you called budget friendly: $399. That probably is budget friendly, for a serious musician who's home-recording a demo tape. I'm a guy who's got 2 other full time jobs (regular job, dad/husband) before I can even think about recording music, and when I do it's just to show off to my friends. And I've got basically no spare cash.

So, if I'm going to buy an interface it's gotta be in the $20-$30 range (i.e. an expense I can offset by not buying beers for a couple weekends). I'm not expecting a great professional sound, but I know that cheap audio equipment has also come a long way.

I don't need more than 1 or 2 input channels for what I'm doing. I don't need it to come with its own effects. It can be USB out or firewire out (I have a firewire-to-thunderbolt adapter).

That said, any recommendations?
 
I just recently bought and tested a Tascam US122MKII for a member here to try out. It was a 'stupid deal of the day' from Musicians Friend. $50. I was actually impressed with the preamps for the price of the unit.

As JG96 mentioned... Also one HERE used as well as a Steinberg UR22. You can contact the store that has used gear and arrange shipping. Usually need to jump on the good deals quickly as they tend to go fast.
 
Just to cap this off here, because it's turning into an interface thread rather than a guitar layering thread, it looks like the M-Audio M-Track is probably the closest thing to what I'm looking for, and a friend of mine likes his a lot. I see one at B&H for $60, so I'm going to try and sell my mixer and use the money to buy one.

I very much appreciate everyone's input on interfaces and signal chain, even if it was off-topic.

Now, let's get back to talking about guitar layering. I was getting some really great advice, and I'd like to keep it coming, both for my benefit and for that of others who are looking for the same info.
 
Just to cap this off here, because it's turning into an interface thread rather than a guitar layering thread, it looks like the M-Audio M-Track is probably the closest thing to what I'm looking for, and a friend of mine likes his a lot. I see one at B&H for $60, so I'm going to try and sell my mixer and use the money to buy one.

I very much appreciate everyone's input on interfaces and signal chain, even if it was off-topic.

Now, let's get back to talking about guitar layering. I was getting some really great advice, and I'd like to keep it coming, both for my benefit and for that of others who are looking for the same info.

That's all very well and good, but I think you should focus on recording one good guitar track before you start trying to stack a bunch of bad tracks.
 
That's all very well and good, but I think you should focus on recording one good guitar track before you start trying to stack a bunch of bad tracks.

This is a great point. And one that myself and others are trying to make clear. There is not much point in layering if the initial signal sounds like crap.

None of us are trying to tell you you need to spend big bucks to get a decent sound, but you have to understand that if you do not get a worthy signal in to any recording device, you are screwed from the get go. Nothing 'off topic' was stated in responses.

Please take a minute to understand that many of us are here to help. Not trying to derail your thread. You cant layer shit with another layer of shit and expect it to sound like anything other than multiple layers of shit. Maybe a new turd could be created..lol

Purchasing an interface is the first step in being able to 'layer' guitar tracks, as per your question. At least the first step to getting one good one to be worthy of layering.

You may find you don't even need to if you had the first step down.

Just trying to help man. It not like I hang out here just to screw with people and try to give poor advice. Listen dood..
 
That's all very well and good, but I think you should focus on recording one good guitar track before you start trying to stack a bunch of bad tracks.

This is what you need to do man, really...Keep tweaking your ampsims until they sound how you want, & record the very best performance you can possibly do, then use the mentioned tips about changing the sound a little to compliment one another, record another great performance like the first one, pan 'em out a little, & you'd be surprised how good something could sound with 2 guitar tracks panned in the mix....

Some advice I can give you on ampsims/modelers are:

Use less gain than you normally do (this has been mentioned already), as if/when you start to stack/layer tracks too much gain will cause them to sound muddy & undefined...

Use the knobs on the ampsims, don't be afraid to try an amp with the bass on 10, mids on 10, & the treble on 0, it's not about what settings you're using, it's how it sounds...Twist the knobs, push all the buttons & learn what each one of them does on a particular ampsim/modeler...

Don't be afraid to try different amp/cab/stompbox/fx combinations...Sure, my POD X3Live has a bunch of Marshall amp simulations along with a bunch of Marshall cabs, but that doesn't necessiarily mean they actually sound like a Marshall amp through a Marshall cab...

Eq is your friend, every ampsim/modeler I've ever used has certain frequencies that make them unmistakeably noticeable as simulations, especially in the high-mid to high-end range...A little eq cut here/there can help smooth the sound out to make it more realistic...Remember though, a little goes a long way...

Reverb is your friend too, but like eq, a little goes a long way...Just a touch of room reverb may be all it takes to bring your ampsim's sound to life by making it sound like it was recorded in a real room...

But the best advice I can give is to experiment & try things that you normally wouldn't or haven't. That's when you learn & figure something out that you'll remember for the next track/song...

Good luck!!!
 
Don't worry, I don't feel screwed with! I was just trying to say "You've all told me to get an interface, and told me why. I heard you, I understand, and I agree. I'm going to look for an interface." If I need more help with that beyond the GREAT advice you all have given me, there are other interface threads on here.

So, I just want to get back to guitar layering so that once I get my interface I'll have some tips should I still choose to layer, and so that other people who want to layer can also have access to that info.
 
So, I just want to get back to guitar layering so that once I get my interface I'll have some tips should I still choose to layer, and so that other people who want to layer can also have access to that info.

Get an interface and start recording/learning. There is no 101, rule book or anything else that'll really help you. Record a track and then record another, experiment, mess with the sounds until you get what YOU like. Picture it in your head and hear it before you lay it down. Does the track want 1 guitar or 4? Only you will know. Don't think for a minute you have to have X amount of layered guitars to make it sound good. Most of the time, less is more!

Someone could give you the amp, comp, eq, delay and reverb settings for a nice sound for them. Doesn't mean it'll work for you. No one has been to the Multi-Layering Guitar Tracks school. It's all about trial and error. If you think there is a magic formula or plugin to make it happen, you're very much mistaken.

Time for you to start playing and learning the craft, from the beginning. No two ways about it. (As it would be for anyone else stumbling upon this thread)

:thumbs up:
 
There's actually a very real possibility that once you get started you'll end up thinking to yourself "man, layered guitars really suck".

I really do think layering guitars is one of those myths/cliches that people think they need to do because so-and-so did it. People do a lot of things in recording that they think they're supposed to do, when the reality is they don't. I'm not saying don't try, just don't get caught up in doing unnecessary things. You seem to be hellbent on layering guitar tracks, and that's cool, just don't think that you absolutely have to do it, because you don't.
 
There's actually a very real possibility that once you get started you'll end up thinking to yourself "man, layered guitars really suck".

I really do think layering guitars is one of those myths/cliches that people think they need to do because so-and-so did it. People do a lot of things in recording that they think they're supposed to do, when the reality is they don't. I'm not saying don't try, just don't get caught up in doing unnecessary things. You seem to be hellbent on layering guitar tracks, and that's cool, just don't think that you absolutely have to do it, because you don't.

I'm not hell bent, Honest! It was something I wanted to try because there was a part of one of my songs where in my head I thought it would work, so I was trying to get some obvious no-nos out of the way.
 
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