Layering rock guitars 101

Sorry you thought I was against you. My post was actually supporting your original post, but there seems to be a trend among some of the responders to give blatantly one size fits all answers. Sorry I ranted...
Yes, there are some good things going on in this poop pile, and I hope you're willing to sort through and find some of the nuggets.
Recording multiple layers is completely dependent on the song you've written. I've listened to a lot of Pink Floyd in my day, and like I said, I don't believe any two of them were made from the same template.
Some good advice that I've gleaned from this. Never cut and paste your stuff, use chorusing or panned slapback to achieve the same sound without having phase issues. (the same works for vocals)
Record the same thing multiple times (accurately) and pan in different directions.
But when it comes to layering different parts, I've always found it best to "feel" my way through according to the "feel" of the song.
Thanks for your last post. I'm hoping the :D at the end indicates your understanding of the jab and flow that goes on here. This really had gotten to be a dumpster fire for a while there...
 
I can't just TELL you which direction it is. You have to do some experimenting on your own and see what direction works for you. Sorry, but there's no other way to do it. :D

The problem is that Mexico is an actual physical place that never changes. Mexico is always where Mexico always is. It's easy to tell you where Mexico is. Layering guitars doesn't work like that. It's different every time, and often a clustefuck. So yeah, go out and find Mexico for yourself.
 
I once visited a mental hospital in South America. It was full of people who tried layering guitars on their way to Mexico. Drove them nuts, the poor bastards!!!!
 
You brought 'er, you lay 'er.

Thank you. You've been great. I'll be here all week.

Try the tacos!
 
Try the new Taco Bell 7-layer burrito with a side of 7 layer guitar tracks. Both will leave you wishing you hadn't.
 
when it comes to layering different parts, I've always found it best to "feel" my way through according to the "feel" of the song.
I think this makes a lot of sense. In one song, I did a 4 guitar layer, 2 on electric at different settings, one on amplified acoustic 6 string and one on amplified acoustic 12 string, the latter two acting as electrics. On the song in question, I really liked the sound because the chords, played in various voicings and recorded at different speeds {therefore some of the chords weren't the proper ones, only when back to the right speed did they join the key} rang and brrrraaaannnnged beautifully. I tried an 8 guitar layer on another song, bounced the lot to one track then did an 8 electric mandolin layer, playing what the guitar played and bounced them to another track. They were single notes, it took ages {I've got great neighbours} and I had a cracking headache but it complimented the bass and allowed the flute to shine a bit more. But it was nothing like the previous song in it's sound.
I realize now that a lot of the guitar sounds I've really liked over the years were layered because when playing live, those guitars sounded ever so thin.
 
To the OP of this derailed post, here is some actual information from someone around the genre you're referring...
Premier Guitar - May 2014
Assuming this link works, it will take you to an article from Cope's guitarists on how they actually did what you're asking about. :D
 
The person that said, "You will answer your own questions." Is the right answer.

Because it's what you're going for. Example, I record one guitar on the left and one on the right. That's it. If there is lead guitar that goes down the middle. That gives it a raw, heavy, thick sound. Now a band that wants more of a "wall" of guitar sound will do more than that. Take Megadeth for example. Mustaine is in the left speaker, Chris is in the right speaker. Then mustaine does it again in the middle. That gives them still a heavy thick sound but starts going into the wall sound a little bit.

Now a rock band.. Not a metal band. Will use way more guitar tracks because they want that big open rock sound. They may record 2 tracks on the left 2 on the right and 2 in the middle. I've even seen guys who had 8 in each speaker. Now to me, that's too much and it takes away the clarity and while it does make it sound like a big wall of guitars, it takes away that thick powerful sounding chord strike you get with less tracks.

Sometimes less is more.

I kinda like the way TOOL's guitar tone is for example. I achieve a similar result by just having one in the left and one in the right. It sounds heavy, really heavy. But the more I add to it, the less heavy it sounds. Because the notes aren't as defined and then there are even more frequencies and then you have to EQ all of this.

On some stuff, I do it like Megadeth, one in the right, one in the left, and one in the middle. The left is, 5150, the right, randall warhead or mesa boogie triple rec or something like that. The middle, whatever fits the bill.

Don't use as much gain as you do when you are playing by yourself with one guitar track. You'll notice it'll be too much as you add tracks. Turn the gain down, even if it doesn't sound like enough, once you layer the other guitar tracks in, you'll see that it will sound way better and way heavier.

Now, on the leads, or solo's, I keep the gain the same as if I'm playing live. Because I'm not going to double the leads or solo's. Unless I double it in a harmony which isn't doubling, it's a second riff that goes with it.

If you look on youtube, you will see that technology has made it that we can do this and sound like we have equipment we can't afford. Because in a recording, you don't get the power amp tube thing going on like you do live. That's why plug ins can sound like the real thing on a recording. There might be a subtle difference but it's close enough that only a gear nerd would be able to tell the difference.

I've recorded my real 5150 and then recorded the 5150 on amplitube 3 and I seriously can't tell the difference. Now of course I could tell the difference live. But on the recording it sounds like the exact same thing.

If you are in a basement doing this, I'd look at amplitube 3. There are free plug ins out there that are good too. But it's hard to beat amplitube in the plug in world.
 
I'd say that anyone who really wants to learn about layering distorted guitars needs to listen to The Smashing Pumpkins' "Siamese Dream." It's got CRAZY layers of geetars; some tunes have over 40 tracks of geetar. And that shit sounds heavy as hell. I think the trick where this album is concerned is the juxtposition of clean single-tracked geetars against the sudden barrage of 15-20 rhythm guitars; the opening track, "Cherub Rock" is a perfect example of this. It goes from a single rhythm geetar to a HUGE wall of fuzzy, overdriven, distorted guitars doing similar but slightly different parts.

Another good layering band is My Bloody Valentine, whom directly influenced the production & mixing on Siamese Dream. In fact, the same gent mixed both albums (and produced & mixed one of my favorite albums from that period, Swervedriver's "Mescalhead"): Mr. Alan Moulder.
 
But see you are giving the example I just gave. If you want that sound, that is what you do. But you don't do that for every type of sound. For example, my style and sound, if I did that, it'd would sound like crap. Because I'm playing a lot of notes and they need to be articulated and heard very clearly.

The smashing pumpkins is an example of creating that "wall" of guitars sound. That works in that style of music because the distorted guitars can be layered over and over and over and it makes the chord being played start sounding like a wall of guitars playing that chord.

But when you get into more technical types of playing styles, usually you won't see anyone putting 30 or 40 guitar tracks on there.

Now, I have seen it happen, when a band who doesn't need to do that goes to a producer who has been shown that's the way you do it. And they listen to the producer and recording engineer, who only know what they know, and they do it that way. The result ends up being nowhere near as good as the producer that understands, less is more more often than not.

Take a really good singer for example... If the singer is really good and you keep over dubbing it you will ruin it. It won't be as articulated as if you just heard the amazing performance one time down the middle and the over dubs just be harmony or doubling it at certain points to give it a powerful sound, like in the chorus.

The same applies with guitar.

Play a technical riff, record 20 guitar tracks and eq it together and then do the same thing with three tracks, one in the left, one in the right, and one in the middle. You'll see what I mean. Less is more.

The heaviest recordings I've ever heard were simply a bass guitar down the middle, a guitar in the left and a guitar in the right and sometimes again in the middle. The recordings that try to exceed that in the rock/metal world, take away that element that so many of us musicians want to hear.

That's why when we hear our favorite bands first record when they were broke and had no money and think the recording sounds cooler than the big production recording they got after a record deal. Because the big production guys have a lot of money on the line and want to make sure everything is perfect, they over do it, and that element is now lost. Then you have to go see the band live to ever get that feeling again.

The same applies with playing distorted guitar live btw. If you are cranked up really loud, less gain is more. It actually sounds heavier by using less. Pre amp gain I mean. But as you turn power amp gain down, you need more pre amp gain to sound heavy.

I know that was long winded. But I'm trying to make a case for less being more. Because I know that it is in most situations.

I want to throw this in to, since it sounds like people here are mostly guitar players. If you're wondering why your recording doesn't have that epic powerful sound to it, and you don't have a bass guitar and put bass in it, you will not achieve that sound without the bass guitar. The bass guitar is vital to making it sound like that. You might not notice it in other recordings because your mind is focusing on the guitar riff. But the reason the guitar riff sounds so powerful and epic is because the bass guitar behind it is providing it with the low end the guitar can't do.

If you don't know how to play bass. Just simply play the root note of the riff you are playing on guitar. Even just doing that will massively change the recording. Don't want to buy a bass amp? Free bass plug ins. Probably one in your daw. I know there are some in amplitube. I know the hd500 has a good one. I know the axe fx has plenty. Bass guitar can be had for cheap. If you're going to record rock or metal music, need a bass.
 
I think the trick where this album is concerned is the juxtposition of clean single-tracked geetars against the sudden barrage of 15-20 rhythm guitars; the opening track, "Cherub Rock" is a perfect example of this.

Do you know for a fact that they layerd 15-20 guitars on that song...?

When I listen to it, yeah, I hear some layering....though not sure it's 15-20 guitars...?
That huge, fuzzy, OD guitar sound can easily be gotten with a couple of guitars, some stomp boxes and amps set on "stun".
 
I don't know if he knows for a fact, but regardless, there are bands that do that. I was in a band where they layered a crap load of guitars because we were young and the studio told us to. But now I realize that ruined the cool guitar parts. Because you can't tell what's going on as well as you can.. If you use the less is more theory.
 
Delirium, I totally agree with you; I was just sort of playing Devil's Advocate and trying to show the other side of the coin, that's all. I don't think layering even three or four guitars works in certain situations, especially in more technical styles of music (jazz, fusion, some of the more intricate metal/hardcore stuff), as you point out. I think we actually agree with each other more than it seems; I feel like we're just arguing semantics. I've made records where everything was layered to death and others where there were only a few guitars tracks per tune, and while both have their ups & downs, it's more important to use the technique that properly matches the style of music.

Miro, yes, I know for a "fact" that at LEAST 15 guitars appear on "Cherub Rock;" I've been a part of the Chicago music scene since shortly after the Pumpkins' debut was released. "Gish" came out when I was 13; by the time I was 15 I had songs on a major Chicago radio station and was playing out in Chicago & suburban clubs regularly. Point is, I know a LOT of people here in the Chicago scene, and once had the pleasure of sitting in on a Butch Vig mix session here in Chicago; I bought him lunch and he told me many, many stories. Including how crazy obsessive Corgan was during the recording for Siamese Dream: they spent 6 months working 16-hour days, sometimes only going back over a 45-second piece of a track over & over, all day, until Corgan got the sound "right." And that was mainly where tracking guitars was concerned.

You can tell the difference between the layered sound and the non-layered sound by comparing "Siamese Dream" with their previous album "Gish," as the former is all layers and the latter is just a few well-placed guitar tracks with great tone. "Gish" is more about the tone of the guitar solos (which are amazing) and "Siamese Dream" is more about the sound of the heavy rhythm guitars, which are layered on every single track.

That being said, I think both techniques serve their purposes. It just depends on what sound & style yer going for.
 
Oh yeah, one last thing: in my opinion, the "heaviness" of a guitar track comes mainly from the player and the part, not the tone. It's more about attitude and playing style than anything else. I think the opening of "Mountain Song" by Jane's Addiction as well as the guitar parts that run through it are some of the heaviest ever recorded, and they're not multi-tracked to death.
 
Miro, yes, I know for a "fact" that at LEAST 15 guitars appear on "Cherub Rock;" ...

....

...how crazy obsessive Corgan was during the recording for Siamese Dream: they spent 6 months working 16-hour days, sometimes only going back over a 45-second piece of a track over & over, all day, until Corgan got the sound "right." And that was mainly where tracking guitars was concerned.

OK...I was just curious if that's what they really did, as the layering is micro-perfect, but considering that they spent that much time on it, doing small sections over and over....yeah, it's certainly possible.

Not saying layering can't have its purpose, but I think in many cases, newbs will run toward layering as a solution rather than considering simply working on their tone and single guitar sound.
I can crank up a couple of my amps and get very much that same low-end chuga-chuga kind of vibe with a couple of guitar tracks...but I guess sometimes it's also about simply doing something a certain way.
I mean....there's guys who will put up a half dozen mics on a cab, from all different positions, and then blend all of them in the mix to get "their tone"...which is OK, if you want to go that route, but I think maybe they feel they must do that, so they do that....when often a single mic can get you there, but you have to find the sweet spot.

I wonder sometimes if all that multi-mic and multi-layering is more of a security blanket apoproach...which is fine, I don't mean to criticize anyone choosing to do that much work....I'm just saying that IMO, sometimes it's overkill, but for certain styles, people will find some SOP that someone used, and then it becomes almost a requirement to follow it....like that's the only legit way to go for that style.
It's like the beats guys who must use a certain Kick sound etc...etc...but it's all good if it lets you sleep easier. We all have our security blankets. :)
 
I completely agree: I think a single guitar track with stellar tone is much better than layers of guitars with sub-par or even just average tones.

Personally, I try not to follow any sort of rules or patterns when I track guitar amps; if I do, I find a lot of the tones I get sound similar across different recordings, and in my opinion, that's a big-time NO NO.
 
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