I need advice with recording acoustic guitar, harp, vocals at same time

[Walter Tore]

Hi All: I have a real small studio space -12'x12'- that is full with my 1 man band drums, keys, guitars, amp, desk, computer. Moving mics around is real hassle and the space is so cluttered, I can't really play around with mic placements like I like when recording the acoustic guitar, harmonica, and vocals, all at once. I have tried the standard 12th fret and below the bridge with both figure 8 and regular cardiod patterns on my C414 mics. Still I get lots of vocal/harp bleeding through them. I also have tried xy with the 414's and also in all patterns. I have tried an octava M012 modded by michael joly, on the 12th fret and below the bridge. I have also tried placing mics a couple feet away and a couple feet off the sound hole. Also did the next to the ear too. All of these set ups included a LDC on the vocals/harp as well. My problem is the bleeding of the vocals/harp on the guitar mics makes eq'ng a nightmare. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Walter

the first song on the site below used the xy pattern with the figure 8 switch on 2 -C414's and a MJ modded Oktava MK219 on the vocals and harp. The next 5 songs used an MJ modded oktava M012 just below the bridge and about 8" out, a C414 in figure 8 about 8" off the 12th fret, and the MK 219 on the vocals/harp.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

My problem is the bleeding of the vocals/harp on the guitar mics makes eq'ng a nightmare.

The first thing I would recommend would be to stick to subtractive EQ on the guitar in the form of using parametric sweeps to notch out the bad resonances and harmonics. With the mics you have, you're guitar should not sound that bad other than getting rid of the honkers. And by using subtractive EQ, you're only taking away from the bleed and not adding to it. This should gives you a pretty fine guitar sound without messing with the vocals and harp too much.

But other than that, I'd recommend simplifying your setup by setting up a 414 for figure 8 and rotating it to stack the lobes vertically; using one side for the guitar and the second side for vocals and harp.

If you want to get more sophisticated than that with your recording setup, I can only really recommend either learning to embrace the bleed or learning to record the parts separately.

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

Thanks for the response G! I never thought of using just 1 mic in that mode. I am going to try that right now. As far as the subtractive eq suggestion goes is this what you mean? I use the pultec pro and neve 1081 eq's from universal audio. On the 1081 would I use the cut knob on the far right to work on eliminating the vocals out of the guitar mics? I haven't tried that either. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Walter

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Thanks for the response G! I never thought of using just 1 mic in that mode. I am going to try that right now. As far as the subtractive eq suggestion goes is this what you mean? I use the pultec pro and neve 1081 eq's from universal audio. On the 1081 would I use the cut knob on the far right to work on eliminating the vocals out of the guitar mics? I haven't tried that either. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. Walter

First off Walt, you have to be one of the best-equipped one man bands I have come across. I envy you your gear budget

No, I'm not talking about trying to attack the bleed with EQ; that rarely works out very well IME. Hopefully the vertical fig8 will address most of that for you. And for the rest - specifically EQ-ing the guitar - check out this article for a description of the "parametric sweep" technique. It's one of my favorite techniques.

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

First off Walt, you have to be one of the best-equipped one man bands I have come across. I envy you your gear budget

No, I'm not talking about trying to attack the bleed with EQ; that rarely works out very well IME. Hopefully the vertical fig8 will address most of that for you. And for the rest - specifically EQ-ing the guitar - check out this article for a description of the "parametric sweep" technique. It's one of my favorite techniques.

G.

Hi G: thanks for the compliment. I really don't have that much into it all. I estimate about 6k in the whole set up - computer, mics, plugins,soundcard, headphones, monitors, and preamps. I guess that is all relative. To some it would be peanuts and others a fortune! The instruments I put in the gig catagory. I was a full time player for years before I got into this recording obsession about 5 years ago and alot of my old musical connections have directed me to good deals on the mics and preamps.

Thanks for that article. Without any idea of what I was doing, I have messed around with the eq's like they suggest, but never realized those spike sounds should be tamed. I am excited to try that out too.


On the figure 8 setup- should I place the mic horizontal to the ground? This way the one side would be pointing up at my vocals and the other down at the ground. Where do you suggest I start with placement? I was thinking the soundhole area. The problem I have had with the 12th fret and below the bridge is that the actual volume coming off the strings is so slight the vocal and harp bleed through as much as the string volume. I play with my fingers and lightly at that. Just more trouble for the recording process! Walter

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

On the figure 8 setup- should I place the mic horizontal to the ground? This way the one side would be pointing up at my vocals and the other down at the ground. Where do you suggest I start with placement? I was thinking the soundhole area. The problem I have had with the 12th fret and below the bridge is that the actual volume coming off the strings is so slight the vocal and harp bleed through as much as the string volume. I play with my fingers and lightly at that. Just more trouble for the recording process! Walter

Yeah, more or less parallel to the ground, more or less halfway between the guitar center and your mouth, so that one lobe is pointing down towards the guitar and the other up towards your mouth.

The only further recommendation I can give you there is to set up with what seams to be a pretty central position, and experiment with fine tuning the position from there. You might wand up wanting to adjust the vertical level to fine-tune the balance, or maybe even slightly moving the mic a little off-axis side to side while rotating the mic to keep the lobes pointing where you want them. It's impossible to predict exactly what will work best for your particular guitar or style of playing/singing.

That said, just some general info to keep in mind or throw out as needed as you're trying your fine-tuning: most of the sound from the guitar actually comes from the saddle/bridge area, because that's where the strings are actually vibrating the guitar body. A lot of people think that that sound is actually coming from the sound hole itself (they are quite close to each other, after all), but that's actually usually not quite the case. The sound hole area tends to be a bit more boomy-sounding, and up by the 12th fret area tends to be a bit sharper-sounding, but with less energy/volume, with the bridge/saddle being a bit of both (this all just very general.) The hard part sometimes is separating the sound hole from the bridge, especially if the mic is farther away. The good news is that parametric sweep technique can sometimes be very useful for helping remove some of the sound hole boominess.

As far as the guitar not being loud enough at times, one thing that may help you with the fig8 setup is that because of the bleed rejection it should give you a bit more freedom in playing with the mix level of the guitar after the fact.

HTH,

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

Thanks again G. for spending some time with a beginner! I am excited to try these ideas and will get on them today. I will let you know via posting the songs I record and if you feel like, critique what I have done. Walter

 

[miroslav]

You can also NOT mic the guitar, and instead use one of these:

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Pickups/ProMag.shtml

I've done a bunch of mic setups in the past and some had really good results, but what I hate about a mic on acoustic, especially if you want to sing too, is 1.) the bleed and 2.) the need to "hold your position", unless you want a lot of tonal drift. Omni pattern helps avoid the drift....but is not always the best choice for overall tone.
I like to move around some when I play.

Anyway...I have both the ProMag Plus and ProMag Grand...and I don't think I'll ever mic up an acoustic again...they sound THAT good, IMO.

 

[Walter Tore]

You can also NOT mic the guitar, and instead use one of these:

http://www.deanmarkley.com/Pickups/ProMag.shtml

I've done a bunch of mic setups in the past and some had really good results, but what I hate about a mic on acoustic, especially if you want to sing too, is 1.) the bleed and 2.) the need to "hold your position", unless you want a lot of tonal drift. Omni pattern helps avoid the drift....but is not always the best choice for overall tone.
I like to move around some when I play.

Anyway...I have both the ProMag Plus and ProMag Grand...and I don't think I'll ever mic up an acoustic again...they sound THAT good, IMO.

I will have to check them out. I have a vintage dearmond soundhole pu from the early 60's. It sounds cool through my guitar amp, but it isn't a true acoustic tone. Kind of a cross between acoustic and electric. Walter

 

[miroslav]

I dig your Spontobeat video.

What...no Hammond organ?!




So do you like doing that becuase of the one-man-band challange...or you just don't want to waste your time trying to have a regular band, with all the band "challanges" that often come up?

You have some nice grooves...but I would think the one-man-band setup would impose strict limits on what you can do, whereas a regular band might offer up more flexibility in what you could do.

 

[Walter Tore]

I dig your Spontobeat video.

What...no Hammond organ?!




So do you like doing that becuase of the one-man-band challange...or you just don't want to waste your time trying to have a regular band, with all the band "challanges" that often come up?

You have some nice grooves...but I would think the one-man-band setup would impose strict limits on what you can do, whereas a regular band might offer up more flexibility in what you could do.

the keyboard has a hammond function! I have gone to the one man band for a lot of reasons, all of which have just happened without forthought. In hindsight I can see why. I learned it back in the 70's from wilbert harrison. He had a number 1 hit with kansas city in the 50's and lets work together in the 60's as a real one man band. When I quit playing full time ( I had a trio for 25 years) I found the quality of available musicians to be nill. I got really spoiled with some of the guys that backed me. Once they were gone, the local part time players were good, but strictly metrodome players that couldn't follow unorthodox, spontaneous chord changes. So, I bought some drum gear and started back on the 1 man band about 6 years ago.

It does have limitiations, but I find my own sound comes out much better with it. PLaying with real musicians is fun for a set, but the limitations of things having to follow musical rules gets more limiting than the 1 man band to me. I realize I could have a lot more beats with a real band, but have found those beats really don't interest me anymore. The challenge of the 1 man band keeps me excited about playing. the puzzle is - playing basically the same couple beats and making them sound different. Kind of like Jimmy Reed and lightning hopkins did. Walter

you have to go about 10 songs down on my site to find 1 man band songs. The past couple days I have been into the acoustic guitar harp recording puzzle.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Kind of like Jimmy Reed.

No "Baby What You Want Me To Do" to worry about when you're playing it all yourself, eh? .

It's refreshing to get some old school music and attitudes on this board, though. . I think I might just have to start calling you "Little Walter" .

A question for you: do you play the harp Dylan-style with the harp mounted on a neck hanger, or do you play it classic blues style cupped in your hands? Obviously if you're playing at the same time as the guitar, it's probably got to be the neck hangar. But if you're willing to overtrack the harp, you can get some really great Sonny Boy Williamson/James Cotton type sounds by cupping the harp and mic together in your hands (I can describe the holding technique if you need it, though I imagine you know what I mean) and running the mic through an old-fashioned little busking-style amp or Pignose, and then miking that amp. (I am an admittedly not-so-great blues harp player myself, an ex-student of Joe Folisko's up at the Old Town School, so I love this stuff myslef).

And a bit more advanced of an idea for the miking, just to confuse you a bit more : You could tyr using two 414s, both set to fig8, and make a kind of Jecklin disc to stick in between them. You can look Jecklin disc up on the Internet, there's lots of DIY stuff out there.

The basic idea here is you would place the 414s each on a side of a small piece of wood and foam (the Jecklin disc itself) which acts like a mini sound-blocker. The you put the mics on each side of this blocker, set to fig8. This way you get just one side of the 8 from each mic - the sides facing away from the disc - actually picking up the sound from one direction. Together you wind up with a complete figure 8, but with each lobe coming in on it's own separate mic line, so you can record them on separate tracks and be able to EQ or otherwise process each lobe separately.

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

No "Baby What You Want Me To Do" to worry about when you're playing it all yourself, eh? .

It's refreshing to get some old school music and attitudes on this board, though. . I think I might just have to start calling you "Little Walter" .

A question for you: do you play the harp Dylan-style with the harp mounted on a neck hanger, or do you play it classic blues style cupped in your hands? Obviously if you're playing at the same time as the guitar, it's probably got to be the neck hangar. But if you're willing to overtrack the harp, you can get some really great Sonny Boy Williamson/James Cotton type sounds by cupping the harp and mic together in your hands (I can describe the holding technique if you need it, though I imagine you know what I mean) and running the mic through an old-fashioned little busking-style amp or Pignose, and then miking that amp. (I am an admittedly not-so-great blues harp player myself, an ex-student of Joe Folisko's up at the Old Town School, so I love this stuff myslef).

And a bit more advanced of an idea for the miking, just to confuse you a bit more : You could tyr using two 414s, both set to fig8, and make a kind of Jecklin disc to stick in between them. You can look Jecklin disc up on the Internet, there's lots of DIY stuff out there.

The basic idea here is you would place the 414s each on a side of a small piece of wood and foam (the Jecklin disc itself) which acts like a mini sound-blocker. The you put the mics on each side of this blocker, set to fig8. This way you get just one side of the 8 from each mic - the sides facing away from the disc - actually picking up the sound from one direction. Together you wind up with a complete figure 8, but with each lobe coming in on it's own separate mic line, so you can record them on separate tracks and be able to EQ or otherwise process each lobe separately.

G.

Thanks for the compliment G! I played with eddie taylor, jimmy reeds second guitarist. I do know about the SBWII stuff for sure. I use to help sonny terry get around. I learned a lot of harp from him. Cotton is a friend too. I have done the mic and amp harp thing but gave it up in the early 80's after being around sonny terry. I use a cheap $6 dylan type rack. Believe it or not, he is a fan of my music. This blows my mind because he was my hero and still is. Overdubbing just doesn't hold my interest. I do it occasionally just to see if things have changed. Learning to make good sounding recordings has been my obsession for the past 5 years. Playing live has gone from like 200 gigs a year to 20. That is ok because I get all the inspiration I need in this little box of a studio. Here is a song that I played the drums in a regular kit form, the guitars and harp. All tracks were overdubbed with the guitar first.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8618114

and her it is with a shure 57 going into a princeton reverb. This is the first time I blew through a mik and amp in about 30 years.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8613351


I am going to do that idea with the 2 c414's right now. I wish we lived closer. I am teaching myself this recording thing and it gets frustrating at times. I could give you some harp pointers in exchange. Walter

here are a couple of solo harp songs. I love doing these. Not flashy, that stuff is too easy.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8760285

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8760283

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I wish we lived closer. I am teaching myself this recording thing and it gets frustrating at times. I could give you some harp pointers in exchange.

My my, you certainly have been around the block a few times. I can see how you've gotten spoiled on who you play with. Almost makes me wonder what you're doing slumming down here on the HR board .

If you're ever in Chicago, I'd love to buy you a beer and nudge some stories out of you. And if you could teach me how to play all twelve positions on a single diatonic like Howard Levy, that'd get you at least a 2nd beer .

Just kidding. My biggest problem; like most folks, is I just haven't made enough time to actually practice enough, and I still have some problems with some of the bends and overblows, especially on the top half of some of the harps. It seems like most of the free time I have for stuff like that these days I tend to gravitate more to the behind the glass side of recording, and I have completely neglected my harps.

I don't suppose you know of any little mechanical tricks with a file on the reeds or something that would allow me to cheat a little bit on those bends and overblows, do you?

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

Hi Glen: I was hellbent on learning from the masters. I basically had no real life, other than playing and moving around the world for 25 years. Yes I got spoiled with back up musicians. If you feel like it, my biography at the link below has some info on the guys that I backed up and who were in my band.

I wish I could give you some tips, but I am not much of a technical guy. I am not one for fancy speed harp playing or overblows. I can do that stuff, but it doesn't hold my interest. The cool thing about going to the one man band was that I finally realized I am about groove over notes and flash. Those overblows and and speed riffs all over the harp just mess it up for me. In the band format I was always trying to get that angle, but it never held my interest and as the years went on, most of my stuff was just the same beats as with the 1 man band.

I learn everything by ear and watching. The advice you gave me is a rare occurance for me on the net. Most advice I get on the net just confuses me to forgeting I ever read it. If you are ever in the columbus ohio area, let me know. I owe you a meal!

Here is my first take with the c414, figure 8 pattern, into a UA 610 preamp. I played around with the mic placement for a few moments. My headphones make things sound treblier than they really are. My next recording in this set up is going to move the guitar side more to the bridge. I had it between the bridge and soundhole, and tilted down about 20 degrees towards the guitar and about at mid neck level. It was too boomy and removing that thinned the vocals and harp more than I would like. I think I am in the ball park but would sure welcome any advice you have. Thanks! Walter

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8767913

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I gave your one-mic recording a listen, and it doesn't sound too bad at all for a 1-mic setup. But yea I can hear that rumbly soundhole sound. You do have it tamed, but the character of it is still there. It's not bad, but the taming causes the whole mix to sound a little thinned and shifted to the upper mids like you say. But not bad, you're farther along than most folks would be in that situation.

The tough part is to get some bass out of the guitar without it sounding like mud. Of course if you had a huge dreadnought of a guitar that might be easier, but then that doesn't really fit the genre so well.

Possibly the Jecklin disc idea might help that, allowing you to EQ more separately, or even simpler would be to to stick with a cardioid pattern facing down placed nearer the guitar, and a second cardioid closer miking the vocal/harp, facing slightly up.
--
And, just for the record, I'm not into anything all that fancy on the harp at all -I'm just neither that good nor that ambitious. I just like to not be restricted to the moral equivalent of the piano white keys when I'm playing a blues harp, and some of those missing notes - which require a full bend or overblow to hit on a diatonic blues harp - give me a little trouble in some keys.

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

Thanks for listening and the feedback! My ears hear prettty good but my dials ain't up to their level yet! Because I make everything up as I go along, there is no room for a take 2. I am going to try moving the mic more towards the bridge. My guitar is a 1938 kalamazoo- kind of mid body sized guitar. I will also try the 2 mic idea. I haven't tried tilting yet. The one mic gives it more of live in the living room/field recording sound I guess because the mic is further away from the sound sources than when close micing everything?


Does that jecklin disc have to be precisely set up? I did a google on it and this site gave very specific specs to get it right.

http://www.josephson.com/tn5.html

I am not that type. I am a ballpark kind of guy with measurement and building. If you saw that video on my soundclick site, you will see what I mean.


I agree about getting the sounds you want from an instrument. I am learning it is the same thing for getting the sounds out of a recording that you hear when you are playing- time and time and more time spent........... Not enough time in one lifetime to get to everything. Walter

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If bleed is really what you're worried about, you could just try setting up two cardioids in a vertical X/Y configuration. There will still be some bleed, but it'll just be part of a natural-sounding stereo image that way. You'll still get that mid-field sound like you like with the fig8, and you'll have two channels that you can EQ separately.

Again, there's plenty of info on X/Y out there, and it wouldn't require manufacturing anything or spending a wad of money on a pre-made disc. You can do it with two mic stands, or better yet a single mic stand with a T-adapter for mounting two mics. That T-adapter is available from just about any music store for $7-$10 or so.

G.

 

[Walter Tore]

If bleed is really what you're worried about, you could just try setting up two cardioids in a vertical X/Y configuration. There will still be some bleed, but it'll just be part of a natural-sounding stereo image that way. You'll still get that mid-field sound like you like with the fig8, and you'll have two channels that you can EQ separately.

Again, there's plenty of info on X/Y out there, and it wouldn't require manufacturing anything or spending a wad of money on a pre-made disc. You can do it with two mic stands, or better yet a single mic stand with a T-adapter for mounting two mics. That T-adapter is available from just about any music store for $7-$10 or so.

G.

Hi Glen: You sure have given me a lot fool around with- thanks! I recorded these a few minutes ago using an oktav mk219 on the vocals (tilted up towards my mouth) and a C414 around the bridge and tilted down towards the the guitar. I got minimual bleeding. Any comments?


Let it snow (lots of here lately)

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8769507

I got to get drunk to sleep
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8769506