How to isolate the guide vocal when recording an acoustic guitar?

Muddy T-Bone

Muddy T-Bone

New member
Sorry, I'm a newbie asking a question that's likely been asked 100 times B4.....

How does one construct a mechanical shield, or select the right mic pick up patterns, to isolate the guide vocal when recording an acoustic guitar using 2 mics - 1 on the 12th fret, 1 on the sound hole, as well as a vocal mic for guide vocals.

My concern is how to isolate the guide vocal from bleeding into (as much as possible) the guitar mic's when laying down the actual vocal track later on.

Thanks in advance.
 
Well....why not just record a guide vocal + guitar track...then simply re-record the keeper guitar track without any vocals...
...or, just record the guitar first, then record the guide vocal.

Why do you need to record both guide vocal and keeper guitar track at the same time...???
 
miroslav said:
Well....why not just record a guide vocal + guitar track...then simply re-record the keeper guitar track without any vocals...
...or, just record the guitar first, then record the guide vocal.

Why do you need to record both guide vocal and keeper guitar track at the same time...???
Click to expand...

Oh I see, your suggesting do the procedure in reverse as to how I was laying the process out in my mind..makes sense sort of. Except that I would do twice the work. Guitar+Guide Vox---} re-record guitar for final, listening to guide vox---} lay final vocal over re-recorded guitar.

Why record guide and keeper simultaneously? I like to work fast and waste the least amount of time.

I still think working with a mechanical shield to isolate as much guide vocal bleeding into the guitar mic's and selecting the proper mic pattern on the guitar mics, I can save a step. Perhaps your suggestion is the only way to go about this. Like a said I'm a newbie.

If anyone has suggestions on guitar mic pickup pattern selection, and construction of a mechanical shield to help isolate the vocals I'm all ears.
 
Hi there.
Let me preface this post by saying you'll always get spill when using multiple mics to record different sound sources in the same room.
Unless you do as microslav suggested and record the vocal as overdub, there will always be some voice in the guitar mic and some guitar in the vocal mic.

But by using two fig-8 mics you can achieve, to a certain extent, what you're looking for.
By aiming the null areas of each mic at the sound source you don't want captured, this will minimise the spill.

So set up one fig 8 mic for the singer and try to get as much of the off-axis part of the mic as possible aimed down to the guitar.
Do the same for the fig 8 guitar mic - use the off-axis rejection to your advantage by aiming the null areas towards the singer's mouth.

Sound bouncing around the room will also enter both mics unless you're in an anechoic chamber, but if you are trying to capture a live performance of the song the method outlined above will give you a very faithful representation of what someone sitting in the room would hear with a little bit of flexibility to tweak the vocals against the guitar if required.

Dags
 
I still think working with a mechanical shield to isolate as much guide vocal bleeding into the guitar mic's and selecting the proper mic pattern on the guitar mics, I can save a step. Perhaps your suggestion is the only way to go about this. Like a said I'm a newbie.
Click to expand...


Most songs are 4 minutes long. How much time are you actually saving by combining a guide vocal with a keeper guitar track?? The set up alone is going to take more than 4 minutes and it probably won't work. Record one scratch vocal/guitar track and then go back and record the individual keepers and save yourself some headaches.
 
Chili said:
Most songs are 4 minutes long. How much time are you actually saving by combining a guide vocal with a keeper guitar track?? The set up alone is going to take more than 4 minutes and it probably won't work. Record one scratch vocal/guitar track and then go back and record the individual keepers and save yourself some headaches.
Click to expand...

DITTO


I mean....how much time is really wasted?
Plus...for the extra pass, you save yourself all this "mechanical shield" hassle and end up with clean tracks.
Seems like a good trade-off for an extra few minutes of work. :)
 
Muddy T-Bone said:
Why record guide and keeper simultaneously? I like to work fast and waste the least amount of time.
Click to expand...
Even if your song is like one of my 20~37 minute epics, how much time are you really going to save ? The world may well end one day......but it is unlikely to be tomorrow.

Dags said:
Let me preface this post by saying you'll always get spill when using multiple mics to record different sound sources in the same room.
Click to expand...
Everything Dags said is true. Unfortunately, it's cancelled out by their preface.
Sometimes on records, you can hear the spill of the guide, but only after a while and it's not always identifiable. But it's better not to have it, especially if in a moment of inspiration you do something slightly vocally different on the proper take. Once I was recording the take proper with me on acoustic guitar and my mate on drums and because it was a complicated tune, I was lightly humming the melody as we played as a guide. And it came out on the recording. It's so irritating and even though there was bass, double tracked vocal, organ, a second guitar, double or treble tracked backing vocals and congas, it was still there like an annoying ghost. It drove me wild because I'd accidentally come up with a unique guitar sound that I loved but couldn't repeat. I had to lose it and redo the guitar years later and it was serviceable but comparatively bland and unadventurous.
Another time, I recorded with drums and my electro acoustic plugged in, intending to put acoustic guitar on later. When I came to do the guitar, I changed the key. Faintly in the background of the drum tracks, I could hear the original key picked up as acoustic guitar. Fortunately, the resultant noise of the other instruments and vocals drowned it out.
I used to record acoustic guitar and drums together alot and I worked out all kinds of ways to do this and came up with some good sounds at times but nothing ever took away from the fact that the drums crowded my guitar tracks. It used to drive me nuts. Now, if a song has the acoustic guitar and drums setting the rhythmic framework, I record DI guide electric guitar and the drums and then do the acoustic later.

It's worth taking that little extra time to get it right. Don't be so excited by the fact that you are recording that you don't pay attention to important little foxes that will come to haunt you further down the line.
 
Very good dags. I like that approach. Just out of curiosity have you tried this with the intent of achieving my goal? How did it work out?

Based on your description I suspect you have done this with good results.
 
Muddy T-Bone said:
Very good dags. I like that approach. Just out of curiosity have you tried this with the intent of achieving my goal? How did it work out?

Based on your description I suspect you have done this with good results.
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Hi mate
I set this dual fig-8 config up for a recording trial when I studied at SAE many years ago.
For the purposes of capturing a 'performance' it was fine, and I was able to use a little EQ on each channel to make the voice stand out
a little more from the guitar and some compression on each channel to smooth things out a little.
But as I said earlier, you're never going to be able to remove the guitar from the vocal mic or the vocal from the guitar mic.
The two are too close together to be able to effectively cancel out spill so you could never completely replace the vocal later on.

I have also used an SM58 for vox and a standard cardioid condenser on guitar for a demo recorded in a semi-treated bedroom sized room with as much as possible of the 'blind' side of the condenser aimed at the singer (condenser a little way up the fretboard aimed at the soundhole and set at a height so that it is pointing down a little) OK, it's not an award-winning combination but it served its purpose ;)

Something else to consider, most players will need to look at the fretboard of the guitar at some stage so using a horizontal baffle (shield) to try to isolate the guitar mic from the voice is going to be a nuisance to them.

I'm afraid that for complete isolation when you have the singer also playing the guitar, you're going to need to do overdubs, as others have also indicated.
Gaffer his/her mouth shut when they're recording the guitar part so that there's no chance of any vocals accidentally getting printed with the guitar :)

Hope you can find a solution that works for you, but don't be afraid of doing a second (or third) pass to record clean vocals over clean guitar. It doesn't take long and you'll appreciate having the flexibility of being able to do any processing to either channel without having any nasty spill to contend with.

Dags
 
BTW... don't point your second mic at the sound hole, unless you're describing your mouth...

And do you have 2 x figure 8 pattern mics?

Learn to play and sing separately.
 
Chili-
The finished product may be 4 minutes long, but for me I never nail anything on the first take. It could be 10 takes to get something I'm pleased with. I don't agree with your assessment.
 
Even if it's 10 takes of 4 minute parts, that's only 40 minutes time. If you want it to sound GOOD, you're going to have to put more than 4 minutes into recording the vocals and guitar at the same time, and may have to take 40 minutes recording vocals, and another 40 recording guitar, followed by mixing the project (which could entail multing your takes together, which given as many takes as you're saying it's going to take you, may take another 40 minutes to several hours, depending on your experience editing in this way).
As much as you'd like to do both at once, it more than likely won't work. You'll probably have to set up a click track, record both scratch tracks (if you'd like), then re-record guitar, then re-record vocals, and if you still don't like your retakes, re-record those again. Making a good sounding recording, particularly in a home recording setup, will usually take you a lot longer than it seems you want to. If you want it to sound good, put the extra time and effort into it, and you won't regret it.
 
Muddy T-Bone said:
Chili-
The finished product may be 4 minutes long, but for me I never nail anything on the first take. It could be 10 takes to get something I'm pleased with. I don't agree with your assessment.
Click to expand...

And your point is....?

Look, I'm all for getting tracks down 1-2-3, and usually that simply involves rehearsing/practicing until you are ready BEFORE you start to track, and then you don't have to do lots of takes, instead you just do the needed passes...
...but even when you have to do 30 takes, the work you put in is not wasted time. It's work necessary to get it right.
Like I said, for me, having the bleed from guitar and vocals is worth the extra effort to track them individually.

YMMV
 
The consensus seems to be that the guide vox and guitar will both wind up becoming scratch tracks....

It does make sense, being basically lazy, I was hoping to find a workaround solution. I will try Chilis figure 8 recomendation and see how that works out.

Understood about the spillage comments, I did recognize that there had to be some spillage recorderd. It was my position that I could bury the spillage with the other instrumentation and vocals that get layered on the original guide and guitar part.
 
Muddy T-Bone said:
It was my position that I could bury the spillage with the other instrumentation and vocals that get layered on the original guide and guitar part.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it works out good...sometimes you want to kick yourself because you are at the mix stage and now realize you have tracks bleeding and it's messing up your mix.

I think bleed can be used effectively when you follow it through on all tracks, as it can become the "glue"...BUT...don't attempt to do too many individual track edits/comps, as you will then have a hard time making the bleed fit in with tracks that haven't been edited.

It can be OK if you have a set production in mind and you are going to accept it as-is...but if you are trying to avoid it, then IMO it's just best to completely avoid it from the start....so just record the tracks individually. :)
 
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