How to get that tight, "together" sound

spinrecordings

New member
I record mainly heavy rock bands (mine in general) I've been listening to alot of recordings latley and I notice how they sound so "together" everything just comes together so well.


What is the secret here? Mixing? Compression? Mastering? All three? I've got great quality recordings and I don't wanna goof it up with the mixing/mastering.


Thanks!
 
Mainly has to do with the performance.
If you have the worst performance then even the best mastering/mixing won't help. Try and get the best performance out of what you got.

If you have a good performance then the other stuff like mixing, compression and mastering will be easier to do and you won't have to do it as much.

Tukkis
 
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A good tight performance is step one. Editing (lineing up things like the kick and bass together, muting quiet parts of tracks, etc, etc) will go a long ways to make a recording sound "tight".
 
Heh...I KNOW what Track Rat was thinking when reading this thread. Probably the same exact thing I was thinking. I will not share EXACTLY what I was thinking though....but will hint around. :)

Indeed, the performance IS the key. Metal bands tend to be problematic on many fronts. I find a lot of "we want this sound", but they come in usually with sounds not even close, and more times than not, they are nowhere as tight in their performances as the band they want to sound like.

A few keys to getting that "togehter sound".

1 - Your drummer needs to be a freakin' machine!!! He HAS to hit consistently. None of this "the snare disappears in this part" shit. He has to hit the same nearly every time, unless playing softer fits in context with the dynamics of the music. I have found few drummers in metal bands, and for that matter, many other styles of music that hit really consistent, UNLESS, they have a LOT of studio experience, and realized at some point that the crappy drum sounds were more a result of what THEY were doing, not that "crappy f*cking engineer".

2 - The drums need to be tuned to sound great! Only alternative after that is triggering the drums. You must also spend a considerable amount of time micing the drums to get just the right sound. Many metal type drummers come in with very badly tuned drum kits. Generally, thinner heads provide the type of sound these guys want, but, they wear out really fast, and most drummers don't want to invest in new heads all the time, so they purchase heads that DON'T provide the type of sound they desire, but are more durable. There is really no way around it. Something like Ambassador Clear's top and bottom provide excellent attack and killer sustain on a drum kit when tuned properly. But they just wont' last that long. When I watched the making of the Black album by Mettalica, they were replacing all the drums heads after every 4 or 5 takes, because the head would only last that long with the sound they wanted. Can you imagine the expense of that? But, that is virtually what is going to need to happen. I recorded a funk band many years ago, and while we didn't replace the heads every 4 or 5 takes, we replaced them after every day of drum tracking (5 set's of heads!!!) It was very expensive for a local bands budget, but the co-producer and I agreed it was worth the expense to get "that drum sound".

3 - Too many times in metal bands, the bass player is very inconsistent in their picking. This is seldomly noticed in rehearsals because usually, the guitars have so much low end eq that you never truely hear the bass. Once in the studio, well, there is no hiding it. :) Also, too many times, the bass player has a setup that doesn't give the "driving" type of tone that you might hear on a Pantera CD. Again, this get's expensive to fix. The right bass with the right pickups, and a preamp/speaker combo that is right for the sound can set the bass player back right around $4000!

4 - Too often, the guitar players are nowhere as tight as they "think" they are. Usually, these metal guys have extremely low action on their guitar, and have a tone that is "scooped out" in the midrange. Indeed, at low volumes when praticing at home, this type of setup makes the guitar sound pretty close to what they hear on a CD, but it never translates to a recording very well. The low action on the instrument usually tells me that the guy isn't a very strong picker. This type of player generally has no midrange in their tone, and the preamp gain is totally over saturated. None of these things contributes to a good guitar sound.

A few times, I have been able to get the guitar players to play with a more appropriate tone. Guess what happens though? Once you get that guitar tone right, the player has a VERY hard time playing cleanly!!! Guess what? They have been hiding their weak picking behind that scooped out mid/oversaturated guitar tone the whole time! Guess what? They HAVE to make the adjustment to the new tone.

5 - Metal singers almost always come into the studio and sing flat! They also tend to be overly dynamic. I think this usually has to do with the fact that metal bands tend to play VERY loud, and the singer has to scream to hear themselves at rehearsals because they usually have very poor PA systems to practice with. The tuning is somewhat curable I suppose with AutoTune...:rolleyes: The over dynamics can sometimes be overcome by tracking 2,3, sometimes 4 different vocals tracks broken up into how loud he sings. This usually has it's own set of problems. Tonally speaking, things are going to get a little messy.

I don't hate metal bands. Really I don't. I am an old head banger of old myself. I have been in music for 20 years now. I have played in bands that suffer from all of the above, or at least a few of the above. So, I am just telling it like it is. These observations are based upon my many years of experience.

It is funny that many metal bands play WAY over their heads. Most of the drummers can't play to a click track, yet, they try to pull off double kick drumming that is incredibly hard to do. They usually only practice when the band pratices when that type of drumming requires at least a couple hours a day of solo practicing! I have had the fortune to mix and talk to at length Dean Castronova (Wild Dog's (Shrapnel records)...played with Bad English, Hardline, and recorded the Ozmosis album for Ozzy, and was touring with Journey). He is considered one of the best metal drummers in the world!!! This guy is simply incredible. Last time I talked to him, New Years Eve two years ago, I asked him how much he practices these days. He told me he HAS to practice at least a couple hours a day by himself with a click track to keep his chops up!!! I first saw this guy play 20 years ago, and he was incredible then, and he STILL practices every day!

Sorry to say, but most metal bands are in complete denial about how well they play and sound just in rehearsal. If you are SERIOUS about becoming better, then you cannot pull punches. EVERY member of the band has to strive to always get better. It is time consuming and expensive to do. The good news is that usually with these types of bands, if they DO make the sacrifice, they usually attract a lot of fans, and at least small label interest. In metal, it is usually as simple as raising the quality of the playing and the sound over the rest of the wannabe bands that get them noticed. Without fail, the local bands around here that have made the "jump" have been rewarded quite nicely. Without fail, all of these bands will divulge that at one point, they were not being honest with themselves about how they sounded, and only got this good by dedicating themselves to doing whatever it took to get better, meaning a LOT of practicing, and sizable investments into appropriate gear that is capable of delivering the sound the need.

There! I have shared the things that many in the business think, but seldomly will share straight up like that. You can say "sonusman, you are full of shit" all you want, but the fact is, I am not full of shit on this, on most people in this genre know it, they just don't want to admit it. "That sound" is very possible for any band. But, most bands are not prepared to do what it takes to get that sound. The ones that do never regret it.

Ed
 
Oh yeah, and for great sounding mixes, NOTHING beats analog mixing consoles and killer analog compressors! :) No Mackies and dbx 1066's here!!! You need a Trident, or Neotek, or Neve, or something that expensive console, and some LA2A's and 1176's! A couple of Lexicon PCM 90's, or at least PCM 70's help too. Oh, and a killer sounding delay, like a Lexicon PCM 41 or 42.

Ed
 
this is weird... I find most of ed's stuff to be true of all bands lately EXCEPT metal bands

"It is funny that many metal bands play WAY over their heads."

Metal bands are the only bands I record that DONT do this!
Here in AZ, metal bands are usually the most proficient, best students of their instrument, CONSTANTLY practicing, never do that rubber wrist crap with their guitars. They know what direction their pick is going at all times, they dont just hit 7 OR 8 or 9 times when it sposed to be picked 8 times, etc...

Only trouble I have is when they come in with two kick drums instead of a double kick pedal.

Maybe its reversed here...we got crappy grunge and rap bands and good metal bands, and crappy sissy punk bands and good country bands

I wonder if hes not talking about the " smoothness" of mixes, ala the hypercompression he hears on stuff today, instead of a playing thing
 
sonusman said:
most bands are not prepared to do what it takes to get that sound. The ones that do never regret it.

I did, and I regret it. Now, I've got this uncontrollable urge to wear black, worn concert T-shirts, post pinups of Eddie Van Halen and Randy Rhoads from Circus and Hit Parader magazine on my wall . . . and my girlfriends all look like something out of a trailer park. Thanks a lot, Ed!
 
A few of my primary bitches have always been:

"why oh why are you in the studio making a recording of songs you wrote a month ago and have practiced only 8 times?" Then they expect people to buy and like it. Good material, in my opinion, should have a years worth of tweaking behind it. Bands that write 10 songs for a CD in a month and try to record it a month later very often dont have one good tight song to record and spend more time talking about the band than practicing.

"turn the gain down you moron!" <--- my biggest complaint

"put some mids back in you moron!" <-- tied for biggest complaint

and

"lets do this to a click so I can edit it later. You dont want to? Oh, you mean you can't admit that you can't do it? Ok, so no much-needed edits for you."
 
man 100 % tubedude!

especially the last one. "the click takes away from the feel of the song"

well, yeah, MAYBE, if you could play it RIGHT, but if you cant even play it, where is the feel ????
 
Yo Spinner:

Lots of good reading in the responses. My first thought when I read your "tightness" post was this:

PRACTICE PRACTICE & PRACTICE.

I remember once I saved some money as a kid and saw a Spike Jones concert in Chicago. Some great musicians in his kinky band. But, I got to the theater early and from the closed doors I heard the band "rehearsing."

They had probably been on the road for six months and they were rehearsing.

I went to a M. Ferguson Jazz concert and marveled at the youth of the band; before Maynard came out and started the show, what was the band doing? Practicing little riffs and parts of the show they had probably done 400 times.

Tight band= Talent and Practice.

Green Hornet:D :cool: :cool:
 
Sorry guys, I didn't mean tightness as a band. We are very tight (I know, you probably don't believe it) but we've spent months and months of practice, and I'm blessed to be in a band with musicians that are this talented.

I'm happy with the recordings, quality wise and performance wise. There isn't a single sound that is out of place or anything that any of us are unhappy with. We are all perfectionists, and don't pull any of that "ah, it sounds ok" crap. We want it to sound GOOD.

What I'm talking about is just how everything seems to mesh together, I guess it's all about good mixing and mastering, alot of stuff I hear is over compressed these days but it seems thats what people are used to when it comes to heavy music.

Thanks for the replies, I'll get some mp3's up soon so you guys can rip us apart ;)
 
AHA

see thats what I thought he was talking about too... but anyhow

spin, just as a REAL quick experiment, stick a compressor across the whole mix. Set the ratio to like 4:1, attack about 50mS. Figure out the tempo of the song and set the release time to 1 measure - 50mS start lowering the threshold and see

just a general idea, lets ee how you fell about it
 
pipelineaudio said:
AHA

see thats what I thought he was talking about too... but anyhow

spin, just as a REAL quick experiment, stick a compressor across the whole mix. Set the ratio to like 4:1, attack about 50mS. Figure out the tempo of the song and set the release time to 1 measure - 50mS start lowering the threshold and see

just a general idea, lets ee how you fell about it

What do you mean by "Figure out the tempo of the song" (I know how to do this) "and set the release time to 1 measure - 50ms"
 
set the release knob of the compressor to equal the time of 1 measure of the song, then subtract around 50 mS from it...just a quick test to see if this is the " tightness " you are talking about...if it is, I'd ask John Sayers to help you from there
 
Its called timing. Few musicians are able to play in perfect time however, think of an orchestra. How do 10 violins not sound like mush. Because their execution is in perfect time. When a part comes in, if it is slightly off time, it will create a faning effect and take the punch out of the beat, particularly downbeats.

One possibility is to have each musician practice to a click, have them play to a click or, if that is not working, mayb use a drum machine with some part programmed that they can all play to. This, however is not the best solution since a track can breath and should. Prefect time is actually a misnomer, that is why orchestras have conductors. In the end, as said above, its the exectuion, but, the problem is how to get musicians with little real experience, limited ability and training, less than great chops and wandering time to play "tight". To me, if you need compressors to acheive this or, for that matter, editing, your already in trouble.

The only other alternative is to find the offending musician and replace him or his part of have him overdub his part again later until he or she gets it right.

This it the essence of performance and there is no easy solution. Oh yes, another thing is to have the musicians count when they play. It is best to subdivide as low as possible without causing major problems for the musicians. Therefore, if it is a slow tune, have them count or think in sixteenth notes, a faster tune, eighth notes. This tends to work wonders and some of the best studion musicians use this technique of course, they are just feeling the tune in eighth or sixteenth notes most of the time and don't need to count everything out. But for young metal players, it is a good thing to learn and develope and will prove invaluable throughout their musical careers assuming they actually have one.
 
The issue of being able to play to a click as a measure of competence of musicianship is problematical. Certainly studio pros who make a large percentage of their income freelancing on various studio projects should have that ability as an essential skill. And certain other styles of music, mostly in the pop areas like dance, techno, hip-hop, rave, etc. demand it, since part of the definition of the style is a mechanically perfect metronomic beat.

But in classical, jazz, blues, folk, and many other styles, not only is playing to a click unnecessary, it is quite often detrimental to the feel of the music, which should be able to breathe. Many wonderful and brilliant musicians in these styles would probably feel uncomfortable with a click track, and that would hardly disqualify their musicianship. If B.B.King walked into your studio, would you insist his band record with a click track? Or the Julliard String Quartet? I have even recorded some rock bands who, given the option, decline the click. And these included some of the top studio pros in the area. Sometimes focusing on a click DOES take some of the creative focus away from the music, and if it is not essential to be metronomic, it is often preferable to sacrifice the metronome.

Also, if a band is not used to playing with a click, it sometimes takes more time for them to make that adjustment than the resulting difference in "time perefection" would justify.

Clearly, it's a case by case issue, and not one that can be universally generalized.
 
I think spin has said that he's not talking about a performance issue, but a mixing/mastering issue

I dont think he's talking about timing, I think he is talking about the " mush " factor
 
Correct me if im wrong but isnt he not really talking about the performance aspect of recording.. And more how it is that every sound in the mix sounds like it locks in perfectly (spacialy, not rythmicly) with every other sound (like a jigsaw puzzel) yet they all have there own space and can be heard perfectly... I dont know thats what i got from his question.
 
...its about disciplined EQ. Its about making experienced decisions about where dif instruments are contributing to the mix, and at what frequencies. There are MANY posts about this on this board. Understanding what is muddying things up. Its about watching carefully whats going on between 180-650Hz. Good monitoring tells you that. Get rid of excess tracks that dont have to be there...extra rhythm guitars, arpeggiations, acoustic strumming that dont add much to the song, harmonies that are gratuitous, etc, listen for whats necessary and musical and what isnt. Watch out for too much reverb. Not enough compression. Too much processing. Always add effects in real time, nondestructively. Be discrete with delays and delay effects. Its also about the right mics on the right instruments with the right pres and the right comps on the right song on the right day with the right performer in the right room. Other than that, experience is the make or break factor.

:)
 
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