How to effectively simulate bass guitar with MIDI keyboard?

Dirk Diggler

New member
[EDIT: If you're going to say "why not just get a real bass guitar?", please don't: I understand that's the ideal goal, but it's just not a solution I can implement right now. I'm looking for ONLY MIDI tips here, not real instruments. Thanks!]

(Preface: I’m a bit of a noob at home recording, so thanks for bearing with me.)

My question concerns basslines.

When I try to program a bassline on my MIDI keyboard (using a bass guitar VSTi), I run into challenges. It’s often hard to make a keyboard sound like a bass.

For instance: if you play an actual bass string really fast, you get a series of closely-connected resonant sounds; but when I hit a MIDI key really fast over and over, I get a series of shorter, more separate sounds, which sound less like a real bass guitar.

For that matter, it’s impossible for me to hit one keyboard key fast enough to equal the speed at which a bass string can be played with a pick (or even with two fingers).

I’m wondering if people here might have tips or techniques for solving these kinds of problems, and for simulating a realistic bass sound in general?

(Not sure if this matters or not, but my DAW is Logic Pro X. I’m currently using Kontakt 6, and the bass guitar VSTi I’m currently working with is Scarbee Bass.)

Thanks!
 
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You're simply not thinking like a bass player. You need to play a bit differently and then do some editing. For example, fast runs of just say four notes. You would probably (or at least I would) play the first note and then hammer on each rise in pitch when you fret the note. This produces a run of four notes with no gap whatsoever between them, so that is very difficult to do on a keyboard, so you need to edit the gaps out, and of course change the velocities of each one - my third finger always plays slightly quieter than the second. You need to also edit your eq to make it sound more real - to dull some, and and energy to others. You need to perhaps also in introduce some pitch bend and modulation, as your fingers often do. Experiment to work out how to best introduce palm muting if your playing style uses it. Pick, fingernail, side of first finger, thumb - all have different sounds - how do you replicate these tonal differences.

If you have very fast picking to mimic, then it's two fingers on one key, I use both hands, first fingers, or sometimes copy and paste and overlay the in between notes, whatever sounds best. Avoid quantising, and above all I assume your keyboard is decently velocity sensitive? Very important.
 
Not sure what version of Scarabee Bass you are using, but I assume they all function pretty much the same way... and what you're looking for is an Articulation. More specifically in what you're describing "Legato" playing as opposed to "Staccato" and it probably means while playing the Notes that you want to be "Legato" you need to press another Key at the same time to tell the Sampler/VSTi that those notes are "Legato". Native Instruments has the Manual for the different versions of Scarabee Bass on their website and sections 4 & 5 of the Manual talk about those Articulations and Playing Techniques. I recommend you look there for your answers. Also of interest may be this article that I just found while looking for the Manual for your VSTi. Here: How to Create Realistic MIDI Bass Parts | Sweetwater
 
As a bass player I nearly always now the difference between keyboard bass and real bass. The most common problem is that people program keyboard bass with notes that a real bass does not go down too, even 5 string low B basses.

Yes you have to think like a bass player.

Alan.
 
Why not buy a cheap bass? There is a lot of cork sniffery talked about guitars, "The Wood" and "Sustain" much of it in the hands of the player IMHO but the bass guitar is a Frankenstein instrument, even more just a plank of wood with strings on it*. But even if there IS a difference between a cheap bass and a top flight Jazz or sommat, I doubt the gulf is as bad as that between a real plank and a synthetic?

Bass is kind to the fingers.

*Oooo! I am going to get it!

Dave.
 
Not sure what version of Scarabee Bass you are using, but I assume they all function pretty much the same way... and what you're looking for is an Articulation. More specifically in what you're describing "Legato" playing as opposed to "Staccato" and it probably means while playing the Notes that you want to be "Legato" you need to press another Key at the same time to tell the Sampler/VSTi that those notes are "Legato". Native Instruments has the Manual for the different versions of Scarabee Bass on their website and sections 4 & 5 of the Manual talk about those Articulations and Playing Techniques. I recommend you look there for your answers. Also of interest may be this article that I just found while looking for the Manual for your VSTi. Here: How to Create Realistic MIDI Bass Parts | Sweetwater

Thanks! This is just the kind of advice I needed. Very helpful post.
 
Why not buy a cheap bass? There is a lot of cork sniffery talked about guitars, "The Wood" and "Sustain" much of it in the hands of the player IMHO but the bass guitar is a Frankenstein instrument, even more just a plank of wood with strings on it*. But even if there IS a difference between a cheap bass and a top flight Jazz or sommat, I doubt the gulf is as bad as that between a real plank and a synthetic?

Bass is kind to the fingers.

*Oooo! I am going to get it!

Dave.

Buying a bass is definitely a long-term goal, but for financial reasons I can't yet do that. (Same with guitar, which I would like to buy but can't yet.)

Basically I have a tiny little studio in my bedroom, with a MIDI keyboard and a couple of mics, and that's all I've got to work with right now. So I have to figure out the best way to get my MIDI setup to sound like real instruments.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
 
Just do a lot of Hip Hop/EDM music...and you won't have to worry about the synth bass....it will actually sound right for those genres! :p ;)

Boy, back in the mid-90s I spent a lot of time jerking around with a mostly MIDI approach to generating tracks...and while there was/is something addictive about, because you get ALL THOSE SOUNDS that you can't with typical acoustic instruments...in the end, when I wanted an acoustic instrument, I ended up going back to them'
I mean, I have a hard time even with many digital piano sounds....they just sound digital. It's often in the laziness of the person who created the samples, in that they didn't take the time, so they would cheat with some notes or not have enough realistic decays, etc.
For the most part though, I can get by with digital piano samples...but if I want a more piano-focused song, I get my studio upright tuned up, and break out the mics for a nice stereo spread, and it beats out the samples almost always.
For thing like a real bass or guitar...I never bother with samples/synths. I play and record the real thing. It just sounds better.
I still have to use the samples when I get to brass or strings...but those are things I rarely add, and it's always in some backing track situation...otherwise I would have to bring in real players if I wanted to feature a sax or a violin...etc.

So yeah...plan on buying some instruments if you want that sound.
 
Bass guitar is likely the cheapest and easiest instrument to get to work in a mix.

This coming from a bass player myself who has had inexperienced bass players get good recordings. We are not talking about incredible players here. Just finding the low end that a natural bass guitar gives.

Just get a $200 Ibanez used for $50 and record it direct. If you can play keys, you can fret a note. The sound is way more natural than any bass synth and usually half the time spent trying to fake one with a synth.

Though, not the same as a synth bass... The song determines what is needed.
 
Buying a bass is definitely a long-term goal, but for financial reasons I can't yet do that. (Same with guitar, which I would like to buy but can't yet.)

Basically I have a tiny little studio in my bedroom, with a MIDI keyboard and a couple of mics, and that's all I've got to work with right now. So I have to figure out the best way to get my MIDI setup to sound like real instruments.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

You can get a used Squire for $100. You don't need an amp. Plug it straight into your interface. Beats pissing around trying to fake it with MIDI.
 
I had to smile so much when I read the posts above. Are we really suggesting that somebody who has never owned a real instrument should BUY one and use that, even a cheap one, because that will sound better? The people who can play a real bass will understand the fact that a real instrument, even a poor one, can sound great with a bit of treatment, but the key feature in this approach is being able too play the damn thing well - and if you can't or have never tried but maybe, just maybe, have the talent for it - you might discover you are a terrible bass player. When you are a reasonably good musician, then key switch sample control is an excellent system, but some people cannot do it properly. It rarely works to record the notes, then go back and do the key switching. That jump from a legato patch to a staccato one needs to be done musically - so not only do you switch to the shorter attack version, you also play it differently - it's the same as the 6 string guitar samples with all their playing styles. The left hand doing the key switching MUST work with the right hand doing the playing.

Most bass parts in songs that get identified by bass players as 'artificial' or my pet hate description 'MIDI' (unfounded in my view as MIDI has little to do with the sound) are simply badly done - that's it. It's not the tone (some of my real basses suck). It's not the notes. It's not even the articulation of the playing. It's the combining of these into a string of notes that a real player would never have produced in almost every aspect.

I play keyboards, my friend plays piano. I will never sound like him. He only sounds like me on a very bad day. Nothing to do with the piano we are playing.
 
Well yes Rob I AM suggesting that the guy* get a BASS and put his lines down that way. There can surely be few people who reach their teens and have SOME feel for music that have not handled and messed with a 6 string guitar? I put bass in upper case because, unlike a sixer, it is pretty easy to fret the strings and make a decent sound and bass lines can be VERY simple and of course built up. My point being that although it is I am sure possible to get a convincing bass G sound with MIDI a real instrument, even a cheap one, does it instantly without so much faffing. There IS something about a plucked string that is very hard to simulate in other ways. Bowed strings pretty easy, struck,piano, harder but doable. The massive transient of the bass is hard to get right IMHO (why they fork speakers so easily!).

This thread is moot and topical for me. My son is home from France and has rarely been off his prezzie. A pretty juicy laptop now kitted out with Samplitude Pro X3 and Independence Free sampler. He has showed me some guitar phrases he has put down. He loves them but they don't convince me. The SAD thing is...HE is a brilliant guitarist and has a very playable Mex Strat here! Just wants to play with software!

*Said guy has said he wants to get a bass and guitar when funds permit.

Dave.
 
I know an excellent guitarist - plays stadiums with big names all over the world, and he is a rubbish bass player. I've been playing bass instruments since I was 8, and have lost count of the people who just cannot play bass properly. Sadly, natural talent is quite rare, and people still take up bass because they think it's easier than guitar. It isn't. A good bass player can produce good bass from a keyboard. A good pianist cannot produce good bass from a guitar, unless they have the aptitude. I've not changed that opinion since 1974 when I bought my first bass. Some folk can, some can't.
 
I know an excellent guitarist - plays stadiums with big names all over the world, and he is a rubbish bass player. I've been playing bass instruments since I was 8, and have lost count of the people who just cannot play bass properly. Sadly, natural talent is quite rare, and people still take up bass because they think it's easier than guitar. It isn't. A good bass player can produce good bass from a keyboard. A good pianist cannot produce good bass from a guitar, unless they have the aptitude. I've not changed that opinion since 1974 when I bought my first bass. Some folk can, some can't.

WTGR I (and I think others in this thread?) am not talking about "technique". I was a bass player and the punters stood for it. My son has played bass in bands (till they found out he was a MUCH better lead guitarists than the incumbent!). He also plays classical guitar and I can post a bit of "his " Bach and you can decide how good he is.

No, my meaning is that getting the SOUND of a bass is far easier IMHO from the instrument than faffing about with synths. As I understand it the chap just wants to put some lines down that sound like a bass? He does not expect to come across as Jacko P!

Dave.
 
I do take your point, and that was my first post's content - how to do it via a keyboard. I just had to laugh when I heard the suggestion that playing a bass would be better, and unless you already play, is just a bit crazy! If you can play - then why would you do it via a keyboard, you'd just play it - I assumed, perhaps wrongly he can't play the bass, hence the need for a MIDI tracked version.
 
I do take your point, and that was my first post's content - how to do it via a keyboard. I just had to laugh when I heard the suggestion that playing a bass would be better, and unless you already play, is just a bit crazy! If you can play - then why would you do it via a keyboard, you'd just play it - I assumed, perhaps wrongly he can't play the bass, hence the need for a MIDI tracked version.

Heh! Do you know "36 24 36" ? Jet Harris of Shadows fame had a bit of a hit with it. Well, that is about as good as I got and it is a tricky little riff that I would not expect a newb to be able to play for quite some time but, "bump-BUMP-bump-BUMP..C and G di dah I reckon anyone could master in an hour and a musical person would keep decent time and they would be doing simple runs and fills in next to no time.

But! Been a LOOOONG time since I made music and I was never THAT good anyway (but I COULD build amplifiers!) so I shall shut up now before hoof gets any closer to gob!

Dave.
 
I am absolutely suggesting he get a real bass and learn to play it. Yes, there will be a learning curve. But better to spend the time learning something that will extend his musical range in the long run, rather than trying to figure out how to program MIDI parts that will never sound convincing. I speak as somebody who started out trying to do exactly what the OP is attempting, then concluded that it made more sense get a real bass and learn to play it. So that's the advice I'm passing on.

Whatever guitar skills and knowledge he already has will transfer right over to bass. Now if he's doing EDM or some kind of genre where MIDI bass is what is desired, then by all means program it. But if this were the goal, I doubt he would have asked the question that he did.
 
I am absolutely suggesting he get a real bass and learn to play it. Yes, there will be a learning curve. But better to spend the time learning something that will extend his musical range in the long run, rather than trying to figure out how to program MIDI parts that will never sound convincing. I speak as somebody who started out trying to do exactly what the OP is attempting, then concluded that it made more sense get a real bass and learn to play it. So that's the advice I'm passing on.

Whatever guitar skills and knowledge he already has will transfer right over to bass. Now if he's doing EDM or some kind of genre where MIDI bass is what is desired, then by all means program it. But if this were the goal, I doubt he would have asked the question that he did.

I gotta say I agree with this. I bought my first bass for $150 because I couldn't get a decent bass sound from a keyboard. Admittedly, I could already play guitar, so picking up the bass wasn't a far stretch to learn as far as knowing the notes. Playing the bass with a bassist's mindset does take some effort though.

Nowadays, I play bass in two bands.
 
Bass guitar is likely the cheapest and easiest instrument to get to work in a mix.

This coming from a bass player myself who has had inexperienced bass players get good recordings. We are not talking about incredible players here. Just finding the low end that a natural bass guitar gives.

Just get a $200 Ibanez used for $50 and record it direct. If you can play keys, you can fret a note. The sound is way more natural than any bass synth and usually half the time spent trying to fake one with a synth.

Though, not the same as a synth bass... The song determines what is needed.

I can see I'm going to get more of these kinds of comments, despite what I said about not being able to do a real bass. So I've amended my original post, to hopefully filter out these comments.

They're good comments, and well-meant, but they're not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for MIDI suggestions only. Thanks!
 
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