How to effectively simulate bass guitar with MIDI keyboard?
- Thread starter Dirk Diggler
- Start date
rob aylestone
Moderator
I've found the scarbee bass useful for a few songs, but it's strengths are for funky bass with octaves and high twiddly bits where the mod wheel works brilliantly. It's not going to ever sound very bass guitar like outside the funky, high area.
There are some useful bass sounds in my Kontakt package in the band section that work for me better. The really important thing is to just try to emulate what actually happens when you play a real bass guitar rather than a keyboard - as I mentioned in post 2 or therabouts. It's the gaps, the differences in tone between notes in a phrase and I know that as a finger player rather than pick, I can change between mellow and hard notes one after the other sometimes. One of the first bass tracks I did that didn't sound like a pretend bass was a cover of "Final Countdown" years ago. The bass part is a rhythmic piece that has few real different notes but loads of accents, pushes and what sounds like quantise but isn't. Well worth looking at if you want to practice a keyboard vs real bass. In fact, this is the only one I can think of where my real bass sounded worse - with fingers or a pick (not that I've ever been good with a pick).
There are some useful bass sounds in my Kontakt package in the band section that work for me better. The really important thing is to just try to emulate what actually happens when you play a real bass guitar rather than a keyboard - as I mentioned in post 2 or therabouts. It's the gaps, the differences in tone between notes in a phrase and I know that as a finger player rather than pick, I can change between mellow and hard notes one after the other sometimes. One of the first bass tracks I did that didn't sound like a pretend bass was a cover of "Final Countdown" years ago. The bass part is a rhythmic piece that has few real different notes but loads of accents, pushes and what sounds like quantise but isn't. Well worth looking at if you want to practice a keyboard vs real bass. In fact, this is the only one I can think of where my real bass sounded worse - with fingers or a pick (not that I've ever been good with a pick).
I'd say for now make music that is within the range if the current skills you have and equipment.
Have fun with that and save up money. Then get a real bass, real guitar, etc.
Wasting time to get midi to sound like a real bass is just that. Wasting time. No matter how close you think you can get, 5 years down the line you'll cringe at how unrealistic it sounds.
Do some electronic music that your gear is capable of and have some fun.
Oh ps, quit being so stubborn. Open your heart and soul to the magic of stringed instruments
jimmys69
MOODerator
Cool man. I wish I had better idea for you. I just don't do that kind of stuff myself.
Sorry if we misunderstood and jacked your thread.
Cheers!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well...you have to accept the fact that everyone is saying what they're saying for a reason...that there really aren't any special suggestions to making a MIDI synth bass sounds like a real bass. You just hack at it and try to get something close, which is what you've probably been doing already, and you find it's just not quite right.
Also realize that we've all been where you are...and we've at one time had our reasons why we just couldn't (at that time) go the real bass or real guitar route, same as you...and we kinda lived in denial up to a point, often using our lack of budget to legitimize it...but eventually we all had to face it.
I'm only saying that because you maybe seem to think that we're derailing your thread somewhat, and by clearly stating you only want the MIDI/synth advice, somehow new suggestions that work will surface...but I don't think they will.
You're always going to get kinda close, but never quite a real sounding bass....and then you'll probably go the next route (which many here have), and you'll try to mask that not-real bass sound with other elements in the mix...etc...but it always keeps nagging at you!
Really...we've all been there...and where just trying to help you get over that hump and on the path that will work....and no one is looking to derail your thread or anything like that.
jimmys69
MOODerator
Well...you have to accept the fact that everyone is saying what they're saying for a reason...that there really aren't any special suggestions to making a MIDI synth bass sounds like a real bass. You just hack at it and try to get something close, which is what you've probably been doing already, and you find it's just not quite right.
Also realize that we've all been where you are...and we've at one time had our reasons why we just couldn't (at that time) go the real bass or real guitar route, same as you...and we kinda lived in denial up to a point, often using our lack of budget to legitimize it...but eventually we all had to face it.
I'm only saying that because you maybe seem to think that we're derailing your thread somewhat, and by clearly stating you only want the MIDI/synth advice, somehow new suggestions that work will surface...but I don't think they will.
You're always going to get kinda close, but never quite a real sounding bass....and then you'll probably go the next route (which many here have), and you'll try to mask that not-real bass sound with other elements in the mix...etc...but it always keeps nagging at you!
Really...we've all been there...and where just trying to help you get over that hump and on the path that will work....and no one is looking to derail your thread or anything like that.
Well stated Miro.
Chili
Site Moderator
yeah. sometimes a thread can go off on a tangent.
and besides, playing bass is so much fun....
Simple parts with a lot of eight notes work best. Notice the placement of the MIDI note relative to the subdivision. The bass can lean ahead, lay back, or play right on the money. Don't program all the notes the same velocity. Mix it up. Listen to the dynamics in a real line and make the louder notes louder. Keep it simple. Techniques like slides rarely sound realistic. Use a basic P bass or J bass patch. I always liked quicker decay on the notes, to give the notes a thud.
Try that. The better sounding your patches or sample (I never tried those), the better your results will be I imagine. The lower the bass in the mix, the less the MIDI bass will call attention to itself.
Lots of great music has been made by embracing the MIDI-ness. I had a blast programming with external sound modules in the 1990s and early 2000s, before I ever heard of samples.
Have fun.
Try that. The better sounding your patches or sample (I never tried those), the better your results will be I imagine. The lower the bass in the mix, the less the MIDI bass will call attention to itself.
Lots of great music has been made by embracing the MIDI-ness. I had a blast programming with external sound modules in the 1990s and early 2000s, before I ever heard of samples.
Have fun.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...for sure.
As much as I'm a guitar guy...every time I pick up the bass to cut some tracks, I always have fun playing it, though it's sometimes a bit of work to get it right, since I don't play it enough.
There was a local Blues/Rock band recently looking for a bass player...and I was giving it some thought, that it could be fun, and at the same time free of that "guitar player" thing that kinda hangs over you...where playing bass, you just hang back a bit and groove.
I also notice that a lot of bass players end up being good producers in the studio. I think it's 'cuz they're simultaneously groove focused but also aware of the melodic stuff, and they usually don't bring a lot of ego to the table (unless you're Gene Simmons
)...where guitars players will focus on being "THE" guitar players. Coquet-Shack
Member
That's my view too. I can play bass, but not brilliantly, perhaps not even "well". I think this backs your argument to a small extent. Sometimes, I'll play the bass, covert to midi and then tidy up the errors and it does the job. Other times, I write the midi directly with no "pre-playing". When doing the latter, I use my knowledge of actually playing bass to rule what I do. So not three octave slides, no notes the bass can't play, hammer ons and pull offs and short slides etc etc.
So far as the midi is concerned, it helps to have a really good bass sampler, my go to being Trilian.
And the result. The bass player I admire most, a man who has played Upright/double bass on thousands of world hits heard one of my tracks and tweeted to me that there's nothing he likes better than a good tune with nice mandolin and a "really well recorded double-bass".
I told him it was Trilian, and he said he'd have to be more careful in what he said.
Dirk Diggler
New member
Thanks, Rob: I feel like you get where I'm coming from, and I appreciate your useful tips.
Just out of curiosity: did you cover the entire song (Final Countdown) all by yourself, including the vocals and guitar solo?
---------- Update ----------
yeah. sometimes a thread can go off on a tangent.
Dirk Diggler
New member
I'd say for now make music that is within the range if the current skills you have and equipment.
Have fun with that and save up money. Then get a real bass, real guitar, etc.
Wasting time to get midi to sound like a real bass is just that. Wasting time. No matter how close you think you can get, 5 years down the line you'll cringe at how unrealistic it sounds.
Do some electronic music that your gear is capable of and have some fun.
Oh ps, quit being so stubborn. Open your heart and soul to the magic of stringed instruments
Stubborn? I did say I plan to get a bass, you know. It's not like I'm "resisting" the idea.
Honestly, I would love to have both a guitar and bass (both of which I can play), but for various reasons that's just not yet doable. (I really should have made this clear in my opening post, I could have saved people a lot of writing. I've amended the original post to include that.)
I do appreciate the "goading"--maybe it will make me accelerate my real-instrument plans--but in the meantime there's tons of music that can be made using the wonders of VSTi's...and there's an art to learning how to optimize these virtual instruments. I think knowing how to do that can only be useful later on down the line.
---------- Update ----------
No worries man! I still appreciate your input.
Dirk Diggler
New member
Interesting story, Coquet-Shack!
How did this world-class player hear your track? Had you posted it on Twitter, and he was following you?
rob aylestone
Moderator
I wish - no, the guitar and vocals were somebody else's problem. the bass is a kind of driving force in that song, but if you listen carefully the dum-duma-dum rhythm is not exactly the same all the way through, and while you can play the notes, and play the rhythm, getting the two together to sort of lock in is surprising tricky.Thanks, Rob: I feel like you get where I'm coming from, and I appreciate your useful tips.
Just out of curiosity: did you cover the entire song (Final Countdown) all by yourself, including the vocals and guitar solo?
---------- Update ----------
I'm away from home at the mo, so not sure what files I have with me - but I'll see if I can find some example of good and bad computer based bass lines.
rob aylestone
Moderator
I found some tracks - they're early versions I think - so the files opened with no eq, or effects bar on one back on bass track that appears closer to the complete thing. The final countdown tracks are the ones to pull apart. There was a real bass - my American Standard Jazz, with all it's usual rattles and buzzes, and the MIDI version - which I copied and pasted to the garrison fender jazz sample, the scarbee sample and the Kontakt collection classic bass in the band section.
The last one is a clip from a double bass song - not a common song at all, but just bass and voice, with a bit of piano and drums. It's a double bass sample from the Garrison Jazz pack, mainly because although I have a double bass, I could not get the fast octave runs right at the end. So it's just there for a comparison.
one seems to have loads of reverb - no idea on that, sorry.
The last one is a clip from a double bass song - not a common song at all, but just bass and voice, with a bit of piano and drums. It's a double bass sample from the Garrison Jazz pack, mainly because although I have a double bass, I could not get the fast octave runs right at the end. So it's just there for a comparison.
one seems to have loads of reverb - no idea on that, sorry.
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witzendoz
Senior Member
A bit late I know, but Just Buy A Bass LOL, so then you automatically become a bass player LOL. I know what I'll buy a grand piano and just become a classical piano player, or a Strat and become Jimi Hendrix LOL. I have played bass for 46 years, only studied bass and only really play bass, with a bit of average keyboard playing, I have no interest in playing guitar. I get very annoyed when a guitarist picks up a bass and thinks they know how to play it straight away, I can always tell if it's a guitarist playing bass.
Anyway back to midi bass, would it improve the midi bass in any whey by which actual keyboard you were putting the bass down with? I am thinking along the lines of the Novation Bass Station type keyboard? The attack and decay and the way it relates to the playing could change the way the midid is written? I know my keyboards with midi seem to have their own characteristics.
Alan.
Anyway back to midi bass, would it improve the midi bass in any whey by which actual keyboard you were putting the bass down with? I am thinking along the lines of the Novation Bass Station type keyboard? The attack and decay and the way it relates to the playing could change the way the midid is written? I know my keyboards with midi seem to have their own characteristics.
Alan.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't think it's about becoming a bass player...but that it will sound like the real thing, which it would be.
Hey...I'm a guitar player, and I can play pretty decent bass....I even stopped using a pick a long time ago, and can play with my fingers like the "real" guys.
If I had never gotten a bass...I would still be trying to make it work with some synth pad!
For a lot of Pop/Rock/Blues/Country recording...you're not trying to perform live with a band doing 3-4 sets...you're trying to create one believable track at a time.
If you can get into the mindset...you can certainly develop enough proficiency on a lot of instruments to pull off some basic stuff that works and sounds well, but only if you start somewhere.
It's not like everyone has the luxury of always bringing in session players for everything.
witzendoz
Senior Member
Funny thing is that because I play bass I become the session player for a lot of the sessions, especially when the guitar players realise that it sounds better when I play it, and the part is more like a bass when I think like a bass player and not a guitarist
Alan.
WTGR Alan that is a bit silly and misses the point. Jeff Goldblum and Hugh Laurie are stonkingly good jazz pianists. Are they as good as Ashkenazy on Chopin or Bach? I doubt it. Does that make them "not pianists"? Not in my world.
The debate is about the SOUND of the bass guitar and the difficulty in emulating it with MIDI. Just yesterday son and I were listening to a bit of Floyd's Wall and than a bit of Who, Quadraphenia. IMHO most people could manage the bass lines in the former but few players are up there with Entwhiste!
Dave.
Coquet-Shack
Member
I got to know him through Homer Joy, a personal friend - the guy who wrote "Streets of Bakersfield" which was made famous by Buck Owens and Dwight Yoakam