How Do I Bounce Tracks on an Analog Machine?

alloutdrummer

New member
Hey All--
I'm a newbie, so I have a really dumb question. Currently, I'm using a Fostex 380S to record, mix etc. However, every now and then, i run out of tracks. I was disturbed until I heard about something called "bouncing tracks." Can someone who has a little more experience than I (nearly everyone) help me on how to bounce tracks? Thanks
--Ned
 
To bounce tracks simply means to record, say, tracks 1, 2 & 3 onto track 4. It should tell you how to do this in the manual (always had TASCAMs myself). Bouncing is OK for mono mixes or if your in a hurry.

What I used to do to get better quality and maintain a stereo mix was to record a submix onto a stereo VCR then transfer that back onto 2 tracks. The trade-off is it only opens up 2 tracks and it takes longer.
 
Ned

This is off topic but I know an all out drummer called Ned and I just wondered if you were the same one...

Heroic Trio? General Lee?

Or not.

Just wondered...

Matt
 
Bouncing

alloutdrummer:
It's been a while since I used a multitrack (I assume..cassette??)
1. Do you have the manual?
2. M. Brane put it as straightforward as you're gonna get. Bouncing involves recording existing tracks down onto a free track...thus freeing up your
other 2 or 3 tracks (whatever number your bouncing).
3. You will experience a loss of high end. M. Brane's suggestion is good. You might also try bouncing the signal through an eq to try and regain that high end loss.

Good Luck....:rolleyes:
 
No Manual

I'm very sorry to say that I don't have the manual as I bought it used off of ebay. can you guys help me at all and tell me a how bouncing is generally done?
 
Bouncing

Okay, I'll give it a shot...but not knowing the configuration of the unit, this may not work.
1. Assign the track you wish to bounce to. (This is most likely by means of
an led indicating "record ready". Some units have mutli-colored leds.
Green (play) Red (record) Yellow or Orange (monitor).
2. I'm gonna guess here and say Record, again, not knowing the unit they may
have some different terminology for one mode or another.
3. Give yourself ample gain on the destination track (Let's say Track #4)
It may or may not be necessary to use your fader.
4.Set your levels and panning on the source tracks.
5. If the unit has a pause button, press the pause key, then the record/play keys.
6. Press the pause, to release it and commence recording the signal from the
three (Tracks 1,2 & 3) tracks onto track #4.
Can you post a picture of the unit, that way maybe we can give you a more accurate idea??
Anybody else out there got some ideas....or better yet, a manual.
Also try this: http://www.fostex.com/usa.html
 
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Image

Hey--
Thanks for your help, but to make it easier on both of us, here's a pic of the machine
 

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I never knew Fostex had a cassette 8-track...

.. but then, I guess it's not so surprising since Fostex and Yamaha were always quick to steal Tascam's designs.

That machine you bought looks pretty similar to Yamaha's MT8X, which I used to have. Very, very easy to use, and they sound pretty darn good for what they are. Be sure to use only 60 minute, Type II (chromium dioxide) tapes. Maxell or TDK should be okay, but you'd better stock up on 60-minute Type II high bias tape because I sense it's being slowly phased out. 90 minute tape is physically thinner, so while it'll offer more recording time, the big tradeoff is that it's more prone to stretching, tangling, and print-through.

Doing external bounces (i.e., bouncing tracks to another machine), would give you much better results. This way, you can completely fill up all 8 tracks on your machine, hook it up to a CD-R or DAT (or hi-fi VCR in a pinch), and mix all of them down to stereo. You'll pick up a lot less noise in the transfer, and you'll get a much fuller-sounding blend than if you bounced on the same machine. You can then transfer the tracks from the DAT or CD-R onto two tracks on a fresh cassette tape on the Fostex and continue overdubbing on the 6 remaining tracks. This way, you can keep your original tape if you decide to go back and change something that ultimately didn't turn out like you planned it in the bounce.

In the absense of machine to do external bounces on, you can follow M. Bane's excellent suggestions and do an internal bounce (i.e., combining recorded tracks on the same machine).

A few tips: try not to bounce to adjacent tracks if at all possible because on an 8-track cassette there isn't much channel separation, which means if you have boosted any of the high eq, you'll get ear-splitting feedback. (Guess how I learned this...). That is, try not to bounce 1,2,3, to 4. It's better to leave at least one open track in between, so try bouncing 1, 2, and 3 to 5, or 6, or...

Record a bit hot, but be careful to avoid saturating the tape. If your unit has dbx noise reduction, an excessively hot signal can result in some pretty warped sonics. I think your Fostex has Dolby (?). At any rate, absolutely use the noise reduciton.

Try to keep sounds with lots of high frequency content away from the edge tracks (1 and 8). These are the tracks that can get damaged most easily because... well, they're on the edge of the tape. Since high end is where cassettes are most lacking, you'll want to do all you can to avoid losing it. Bass guitar, toms, kick, synth pads, backing vox, etc. are okay for edge tracks.

Also, bounce complimentary instruments together so that if you need to eq later on, it'll still be possible. For example, you could bounce the kick drum and the hi-hat to the same track, since their frequency ranges are on opposite ends of the spectrum. That way, if you need to boost the lows in the kick after the bounce, it will only affect the kick because the hi-hat doesn't live in the same frequency range.

Obviously, you'll need to plan your recording in advance to get the best results. Knowing in advance which tracks you're going to bounce will definitely help you to record more efficiently. You'll probably end up refining your arrangement in the process, which is more often than not a GOOD thing.

Most important point: HAVE FUN! These machines are incredibly easy to use once you start playing around with them.

I still have a Tascam 488 mkII (also and 8-track cassette machine) that I still use regularly to put down rough ideas. Nice machine.

If you need more help or info, let me know.

Bruce in Korea
 
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Thanks, but what about connections?

Hey Bruce--
Thanks for all your help, that was TERRIFIC information you gave me. If you have a chance, I would REALLY appreciate it if you could help me with connections when I bounce tracks. Basically, what do I connect to where? Now, I know this varies from machine to machine, but can you give me a general idea of what connections I should be making? Thanks
--Ned
 
Massive tutorial!

You're welcome! That's what this forum is for - passing along tidbits to those who need them. I'm just glad that I can actually help someone here, because I'm still using analog stuff myself.

This going to be a long post, so get ready... :D

RE: connections...

First, what will you be connecting your unit to? Are you going to bounce to an external machine such as a DAT or CD-R? Let's assume that for starters, and then after that we'll look at an internal bounce.

External bounce:

It's actually pretty simple: you'll need stereo cables with 1/4" RCA plugs on each end. Connect the left and right plugs on one end to the Line Out jacks on your Fostex unit. (These may also be marked Master Out or Stereo Out, but it's all the same thing.) Connect the other end to the record inputs (or line in, or whatever they're called) on the machine you're bouncing to. Put a blank CD in the CD-R, or get a fresh DAT tape, making sure to fast forward and rewind the tape through all the way once so that it gets loosened up a bit and packed nice and even on its little reels. Put the machine you're recording onto in pause/record. Plug a set of headphones into the headphone jack on the CD-R/DAT to monitor what you're recording (or better yet, use real monitor speakers!) Now, zero out all the controls on the Fostex. That is, put everything in its factory neutral position: pan pots in the center, eq in the center (i.e., don't boost or cut any eq just yet), and pull all the channel faders and master faders down. Switch each individual track you'll be bouncing into "tape" mode.

Additionally, you'll also need to select the proper assign button for each track. Usually on these machines the tracks are split into 4 groups: 1/2 and 3/4. Tracks 1, 2, 5, and 6 are typically part of groups 1/2; 3,4,7, and 8 are with groups 3/4. Say you have stuff recorded on all 8 tracks. Just go through and find the little assign buttons for each track - they should be above the channel faders. Press down the 1/2 button for tracks 1,2,5, and 6 and the other one for the remaining tracks. You'll also need to assign these to go through the master faders, as there's a little 1/2 and 3/4 button above those as well. Press both of these down. With me so far?

Now, monitoring from the CD-R/DAT with your headphones, cue up the tape in your Fostex while slowly bringing up the channel faders and two master faders. When you hear sound from each track you've recorded on, you know you're in business. If you don't, try playing with the little assign buttons, making sure your faders are up high enough, and checking to see that your connections are all good and that the record volume is set properly on the DAT/CD-R.

Here is where you can have fun: try panning the different parts to different places in the stereo spectrum: put some on the left side of center stage, some on the right, and some in the center. Typically, in rock and pop rhythm guitars and keyboards are panned right and left usually 8:00 and 4:00 or 9:00 and 3:00. Bass should be in the middle because the low frequencies are the most powerful and need to be evenly distributed. That, and bass is not perceived as directional by our pathetic human ears, so panning it to one side isn't useful unless you're doing a jazz recording (and why you'd be doing that on a Fostex 8-track cassette is beyond me...). Same goes for the kick drum. Its energy needs to be centered. Usually, snare and hi-hat are also straight up the middle, though this is not a strict rule you have to follow.

If you REALLY want to explore sonic depth, you can attach an effects device such as a reverb/delay unit to the effects send/returns. More on that in another post, though...

If you need to use eq, do so sparingly. The best rule of thumb is to BOOST eq while you're tracking to the multitrack and CUT eq while you're mixing down, especially when dealing with the limitations of cassette tape. If you boost the high eq on, say, an acoustic guitar while you're tracking, you can then cut a little and not really lose too much definition when you bounce or mixdown, and this will also cut out some of the tape hiss at the same time. Cutting, or "subtractive eqing," usually yields far better result in mixdown; you usually end up taking out hiss in the high end and mud in the middle and low end that you don't want anyway. But always remember: if you can get the sound you want in the recording process by changing the position of a mic, by all means do THAT first. The less you muck with eq, the better. Then your recording will sound more natural. But as a creative tool, eq can open up lots of sonic possibilities. Experiment!

Once you've got things set where you think they sound good, push play/record on your mixdown machine and play on you Fostex. Watch the record meters on the DAT/CD-R. Be sure not to exceed 0 VU on any digital machine you're recording to because you'll get digital clipping, which is not at all pretty and decidedly unmusical.

Once you've recorded the bounced material, press stop on both machines and rewind all tapes to their start point. Listen to the bounced tracks - how do they sound? You can re-do them as necessary by going back through the above proceedure, tweaking as necessary.

Now, rewind the DAT or put the CD with the bounced tracks in your CD-R. This time you'll need some adapters for your RCA stereo cables so that you can plug one end directly into two of the inputs on your Fostex. The adapters should have a 1/4" RCA jack on one end and a 1/4 phone plug (like on a standard guitar cable) on the other. Better yet, go to your local Radio Shack or music store and buy stereo adapter cables with RCA plugs on one end and phone jacks on the other. .... The end with the RCA plugs gets connected to the RCA line outs on the DAT/CD-R. The other end gets connected to two inputs on your Fostex, say, channels 7 and 8.

Zero out all the controls on the Fostex again - faders down all the way, pan pots centered, eq centered, assign switches all off.

Now, pop a fresh tape in the Fostex and fast forward/rewind it all the way through once to loosen up any tape that may be packed too tightly.

Let's set it up to record on tracks 7 and 8. Push the assign buttons for 3/4 above the channel faders for those tracks. Turn the pan control for track 7 all the way to the left. Pan track 8 all the way to the right. The reason you do this is because the pan pots on these machines serve two functions: they control placement in the stereo spectrum in mixdown, and in recording they tell the signal where to go. Left = odd-numbered tracks; Right = even-numbered tracks. (More accurately, left= groups 1/2, right = groups 3/4, though I may be off on this. My machine isn't here in front of me, so I'm sorry if it's not exactly right, but if you play with it, you should figure it out very quickly!)

On the Fostex, switch the track selector switch to "input" (it was on "tape" just a minute ago) because you will be recording a signal coming INTO the machine. Enable the tracks you want to record on by pressing the record buttons under the display for tracks 7 and 8. Set the master faders up to the shaded area, or somewhere around 7-10, which is their ideal setting. Put the machine in pause/record. Now play back the CD-R/DAT, and at the same time slowly bring up the channel faders until you see a signal. You can record this fairly hot and get away with it, but again be careful you don't saturate the tape. +3 on the meter, with an *occasional* jump up to +6 will usually be fine. After you've practiced this, try pressing play/record on the Fostex and recording your "bounced" tracks back onto your cassette machine. Listen back to the results, and don't be afraid to keep trying if you don't quite get it at first. When completed, you'll now have a stereo submix of your rhythm tracks on tracks 7 and 8, which leaves you an additional 6 tracks to play with for lead and backing vocals, guitar leads, sax, or whatever else floats your boat.

Internal bounce (mono)

Let's say you've got something recorded on tracks 3,4,5,6,7,and 8 and you want to bounce them down to track one. Pretty easy:
Set up track 1 to record by setting its pan control all the way to the left. Select 1/2 and "input," and pull the channel 1 fader all the way down. Turn down the headphone volume, insert your headphone plug, and adjust volume accordingly. (*It's MUCH better to use regular near-field monitors when bouncing and mixing down, but headphones will work in a pinch.*) Press the record button for track 1. The "rec" light should flash.

Now you have to send all the other tracks to 1. First, set the input selector switches for tracks 3,4,5,6,7,and 8 all to "tape" because you're sending a signal that's already recorded onto those tape tracks to a different location on the same tape to be re-recorded. Remember: pan all tracks left because by doing so you're telling the machine to send them to an odd-numbered track (track 1). To check, you can push play on the Fostex and monitor the signal from each track individually. That is, as the machine plays, press the assign switch 1/2 on track 3 and turn its pan control to the left. You should hear the signal coming through to track 1 and see the meters moving. Is it set to "tape?" Double check.

Set all the tracks to play as I've described, adjust the individual levels as they're all playing together, and then practice the bounce a few times. Depending on what you've recorded and how complex it is, it may take a few tries to get the balances right. Also, you might want to cut a bit of the lower midrange on some of the tracks if there are lots of guitars/keyboards or other instruments that are occupying the same frequency range. This is where eq comes in handy: If you've done everything right, you shouldn't need any, but if certain parts are becoming indistinct, you could try to alter their eq to make them stand out. Remember that it's usually better to CUT than to boost here. If a guitar and a keyboard are fighting for the same space, cut some of the lower midrange on one to make the other stand out and check how that sounds. Of course, you certainly CAN boost, but do it sparingly. Always let your ears be the judge.

Once you've executed the bounce, listen back to it to see if it is satisfactory. If so, you can then erase all the original tracks to
make room for others.

Internal bounce (stereo)

Same thing, only this time we'll bounce tracks 4 - 8 to tracks 1 and 2. Remember, we're not using 3 because we want to leave a guard track. Adjacent tracks often don't bounce well on these machines! Pan tracks 1 and 2 full left and full right, and set their selectors to "input." (or is it "tape"? I'm getting sleepy here!) pull their faders down, and set their eq to center (flat). Now, for the tracks you're bouncing, you'll need to adjust their pan position just like you did when you bounced to an external machine. Put some things in the center, some left, some right, some a little off center, etc. Set their selector switches all to "tape," and set their assign switches accordingly. Press the respective buttons to put tracks 1 and 2 into "rec" mode, press play, and go for it!

Does all of this make sense? If it helps in any way, I'll be very happy. I'll probalby have to come back to this and fine-tune it a bit, but this should get you started....

Happy bouncing!

Bruce in Korea
 
I know this does not answer the original post but I was curious I use to have a fostex and did experience a loss of high end when bouncing so I would use the same method as M. Brane I know own (for a couple of years) a tascam 488mkII, I don't hear the same loss of high end when bouncing and have found it very usefull have I lost my hearing at this range or is the 488 just a better machine? Overseas I see you have this machine and use for ideas any comments?
 
Well,...

Several things could be at work here. Your Fostex's heads may have been dirty, in need of degaussing, or out of alignment. It also depends on what you were bouncing and what eq changes you made, if any. It could also have been the Dolby, which I find a bit wanting on the Fostex machines. TASCAM uses dbx, which supposedly alows for a 90-95db sinal-to-noise ratio.

When bouncing, you really have to pre-plan all your moves and know what instruments you're going to combine so you can tweak them ahead of the bounce.

Do you still use the 488mkII?

Bruce in Korea
 
Yes I do I'm still stuck in the analog world arghhh! That sounds like a good guess on the fostex machine now that I think about it I use to use it at band practice it was so easy to run we would record all our practices with it so by the time I started home recording I'm sure it had a lot of miles on it.
I do plan all my bounces on the tascam machine and I usually add effect and eq during them I like the noise reduction system on the mk488II also noticed a big difference there.
 
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