Home studio drum recording - eclectic, busy music, feedback wanted

oddfodder

New member
Hi,

I’m new to this forum and am eager to get some advice/feedback on an upcoming recording session in which I’ll be playing drums. Some quick background – I’ve been playing drums for over 30 years and have been recording them in studios for nearly as long. That being said, while I know enough to be dangerous I wouldn’t be shocked if there are obvious things I‘m missing or mistakes I’m making, so I’m really open to opinions. Sorry if this is a little long but I want to paint the complete picture so figure better too many details than too few.

First, the style of music is important: we play a very strange instrumental mix of prog rock, space, psychedelic, jazz and punk. The drums are busy/chattery with a lot going on, including odd times and polyrhythms, with a lot of quick notes and accents. The drum set itself is a very high quality Premiere kit (recording series) from the 80s – 4 toms, snare and 24” BD with double bass pedal. The cymbal setup is unique – Zildjians: high hats, large ride, china, 2 small bell cymbals and 2 sets of inverted, stacked cymbals (Bozzio style) which provide for very fast, staccato notes as well as unusual trashy sounds. I also use a clave cowbell that I play with my left foot. I’ll be going over the tuning of the drums with a fine-toothed comb before we record. I also plan to walk around the room and try to decide the best spot to record the drums.

The room is OK – not great, not terrible. It’s our rehearsal space, pretty decent sized - something like 20’ or 25’ x 15’ or so – I can measure if helpful. The ceilings are a nice height – I’d guess 8’ or 9’. Carpet on most of the floor, wood underneath. Blankets hanging on some of the walls and part of the ceiling. One door leading to a hallway and 2 doors on the opposite side leading to other, smaller rooms. One window on the wall between the hallway door and one of the other doors.

Aside from the drums we have a chapman stick player who also plays electric violin (never in the same song) and an electric guitarist. We record all together using headphones – no overdubs at all – with the stick & violin being recorded direct. Last time we had the guitar amp in another room but the guitarist was not very comfortable with that. This time considering his main amp in another room and a small amp/speaker in the room with us for him to play off of, likely behind a makeshift barrier wall that he can see over and/or facing away from the drums. While there will still be some bleed, we hope it’ll be minimal and as I said, we keep all the tracks so at least it won’t fight anything else being played.

Last time we recorded with 8 tracks into a MacBook Pro – this time we are planning to get the Behringer 16 track interface, using 1 track each for stick & violin, 2 for guitars leaving 12 for drums/room.
On to the drum recording itself: all in all I (will) have access to 10 Mics, some of which are very good. Here are my thoughts on how to use them:

• 2 matched Neumann U87s (OHs) – last time these were placed ORTF, considering going with a wider spacing this time for more separation
• Sennheiser 441-D (top snare - alt could be AKG C 414 EB)
• To be purchased - either EV N/D868 or Avantone Pro Mondo (inside bass drum)
• AKG C 414 EB - assuming not used on snare ( 2 smallest toms)
• Sennheiser 421-D (tom)
• SM-58 (floor tom)
• SM-58 (batter side bass drum)
• SM-57 (underneath snare)
• EV PL88 - EV's version of a 58 (Cowbell played with foot)

We also have access to a few more SM 58s and a cheapish AKG condenser mic that we plan to experiment with as mono or stereo ambient room mics.
I've also read online that some people love the AKG C 414 EB as a bass drum mic so depending what we decide I could try that, in which case I’d move a 58 to the toms - I've even read that a lot of people like the Sennheiser 421-D on the bass drum, although it might require a little extra low end in the mixdown.

I’d love to read thoughts/feedback/criticisms, whatever. I feel like in the past I should’ve done more homework and research ahead of the session, so this time I’m hoping some extra preparation and planning pays off.

Thanks.
 
With such a large setup i would try to get the best sound you can out of the overheads on the entire kit, then add snare mic, move it until it blends with the overheads for the best sound , then do the same with the kick drum, using one just outside the reso head off set from the hole to get more bottom while again moving to get it to blend with to O/heads. The i would take a room mic and move it around for the best ambient that fits with the rest. I might just throw a spot mic on the cymbals that you plan to "feature" but really with so much stuff going on i would feel like trying to mic everything and make sure everything was in phase would be just an exercise in frustration, so minimalist would be my personal suggestion
 
My studio kit is quite large when it's fully set up...and I always opted to go with a M/S overhead pair and just a spot mic on the snare and one on the kick (front head or inside the drum).

That way the drums are primarily recorded as a "kit", with the two spot mics only there to reinforce the snare and kick.
The M/S pair was place not too high up, like about 8'... and centered over the snare/kick point...and then rotate the M/S until you get the desired L/R image.
I found that the M/S pair did a great job picking up the toms, and I kept the cymbals low and slightly down toward the inside of the kit, which made for a nice level balance.

Not to mention...come mixdown time...you only have to deal with 4 drum tracks...not 10. :)

At any rate, if you start with the minimal setup and get a good sound...it's not a problem to add some more spot mics if really needed, but once you get a good sound with the minimal setup, you won't depend on the spot mics as much...they can be used just for reinforcing the sound of the kit if needed.
 
Thanks for the suggestions, For our first CD, we did go minimal out of necessity - as i said above we had 8 tracks. I was happy enough with the snare, the cymbals sounded great but there were not enough toms and I was unhappy with the bass drum. I was able to fix the toms by doubling the OH tracks and then automating them so they were only open when the toms were played. Then a bit of treatment. This was a bit of work but the end result was pretty good. I also doubled with BD and tried triggering a programmed sound and mixing that in but was never quite happy with the result. We tried a lot of stuff including sidechaining but it was never quite right. That was a SM 58 inside the BD, so I'm hoping a better mic will help. I thinking we could also do a better job of carving out space for both the BD and stick by finding a sweet spot for each and accentuating that on the given track with pulling the same down on the other.

Anyway I thought I might try the close micing thing just to have more control later, but maybe starting minimal and only adding as necessary is a good approach.

What do you guys think of my mic choices? If I do go more minimal I could try either the AKG 451 or Sennheiser 421 on the BD as I wrote above.
 
I would try every mic on the kick since a lot of the time i find it needs some eq anyway. Plus i have had good luck using random vocal dynamic mics and even SDC mics on the kick. Dont be afraid to experiment, a lot of times the "right" way is not the only way and some times not the best way,
 
thanks - I feel like the batter side mic might be important for the attack and the left foot clave gets a bit lost so I think I probably to mic that as well.
 
With the Bass drum, I would forget the batter side mic, why not place the internal mic closer to beater skin. I tend to do this and also have a sub kick, I have a home made one with a 10" speaker but any speaker from about 6" will do it. The picture below that I found on the net is almost exactly what I do but I have the inside mike usually a bit more inside. You may have to flip the phase on the mic or speaker to bring them in phase, sometimes you have to also move them slightly, also check them against the overheads.

Alan.

P7310008.jpg
 
I have a very big hole cut in my resonance head on the BD, so not sure if the sub kick is possible. I plan to put blankets etc over the back of the BD to make a "room" and provide extra isolation.
 
I have a very big hole cut in my resonance head on the BD, so not sure if the sub kick is possible. I plan to put blankets etc over the back of the BD to make a "room" and provide extra isolation.

I have even used it with no front skin, it picks up air movement

I often build a blanket tunnel over the bass drum and mics.

Alan
 
Cool, thanks. Which BD mic(s) do you prefer? As I said above, I have a 421-D and a 451-B but was thinking of buying a mic specifically made for BD & bass.
 
recordinghacks.com has a BD mic comparison with examples so you can pick what will work best fort the type of genre. The most popular Audix, AT, Shure and AKG all sound differently and to me they're timbres tend to be associated with different types of music
 
I use a AKG D112, some people don't like them but it works for me. I also have a vintage AKG D12 which I also like, give more of that Beatle era or Jazz sound. AKG have released a new version D12 VR which has different settings for vintage or modern sound, not cheap. However I have also used a 421, and even an SM57. You know an SM57 or SM58 and the sub-kick setup could be interesting. You could use the snare under mic to give that a go, by the way I use a cheap pencil condenser under my snares, sounds great.

Alan.
 
Thanks for the info. I like that mic comparison over at recordinghacks - that's (along with some other articles) where I narrowed it down to the EV N/D868 or Avantone Pro Mondo if I buy something. I find it hard to distinguish what might work best for "my" type of genre if I do buy something - people tend to put us in the prog rock category but we're nothing like the pompous prog bands of the 70s. We have a lot of psychedelic, avantgarde and fusion elements and tend to have a jammy rather than over-produced sound.
 
The reason I brought up genre was not to get too deep into it but to point out that where the bass guitar and kick drum sit in a mix differs substantially at times depending on genre. Is the plan to have the kick forward or back, rock&roll papery, dance style boom etc, and are the bass guitar parts purely rhythmic or more melodic, and which is going to take the very bottom of the spectrum , cause both doesn't work easily. So orchestration/arrangement decisions for the kick/bass blend inform whether your mic needs to emphasize "boom", "body" or "pop" or just a fairly flat representation that will take eq easily to fit as needed. It's why I have tried so many different combinations of mic on the kick-getting it to fit the arrangement before mixing is just a step saver. If I can get away with a couple small eq moves and some compression to get it to sit right I've saved time. Right now I'm using the D112 on the outside and, some 90's era Fostex dyn vocal mic as an inside mic cause the combination between them and the "slap" in the o/heads melds together for the sound I want
 
Right now I'm using the D112 on the outside and, some 90's era Fostex dyn vocal mic as an inside mic cause the combination between them and the "slap" in the o/heads melds together for the sound I want

When you say outside & inside, I assume outside=resomsnce side and inside=batter side or are you saying you use the D112 on the batter side? The chapman stick (we don't have traditional bass) does play melodies as well as rhythm. Because we are a 3-piece with a lot going on, both the low-end of the stick and the BD are critical. I'm planning that we need to carve out space in each other's EQ to allow for both, though at this point I'm not sure which will have (for instance) 70-80 Hz as the sweet spot and which will have 100-120 Hz.
 
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When you say outside & inside, I assume outside=resomsnce side and inside=batter side or are you saying you use the D112 on the batter side? The chapman stick (we don't have traditional bass) does play melodies as well as rhythm. Because we are a 3-piece with a lot going on, both the low-end of the stick and the BD are critical. I'm planning that we need to carve out space in each other's EQ to allow for both, though at this point I'm not sure which will have (for instance) 70-80 Hz as the sweet spot and which will have 100-120 Hz.

Forget batter side, both mics are in front of the drum, the inside mic goes in via the hole in the front skin, the sub kick sits in front of the front skin.
 
thanks - I've never tried that. If I've had a 2nd BD mic it's always been placed on the batter side. The one inside gives you that extra click then.
 
A year or so ago my Sweetwater Pro contact let me in on a special sale they were having on the EV N/D 868 mic you listed as perhaps wanting to add. Mind you, I own several really good kick only mics and a bunch of others that will work on nearly any kit and style imaginable. The EV is now my go-to kick drum inside mic. It has everything an Audix D6 has, everything a D112 has and everything a Beta 52 has and none of the things that lead you away from these mics after a while. It's very articulate while keeping the low-end under control while still HAVING the low-end.

I would mic your kit as has been described to start. The 87's as overs and in any pattern you'd like really. 87's are one of the best overhead mics I've ever used and I have 100's and 100's of hours on a pair from this purpose.

I would close-mic the snare with the Sennheiser. MD421 is "snare". Roll the ring to 'speech' just for fun.

I would spot mic your toms with the 58's and the 57 but not necessarily on top or in tight. You're going to get "impact" from the overheads. But the toms will decay rather quickly over the time in this distance. (make sense?) So a spot mic specifically tailored to the tone of each tom. You won't need a lot....just to enhance the overhead capture and give you something @ mix.

The 414 should be a room mic. And I would use the 441 as what I like to call an area clarity mic. I usually put one 4' out from the kit about chest high and angle to taste. Almost like the listen to kit from the front spot.

Micing a kit is all about placing mics where you hear things rather than where you think the sound should go. Drumkits all project as differently as the player and the tuning and the style being played and this is where you adjust things to. If you are engineering as well as being the player, yu need to enlist someone to play while you move mics to sweet spots. If the tuning and the placement in the room is right from the start then the LESS signal chain you have to use will enhance the drums capture significantly. When people talk about a "great room" they are talking about the drums sounding superb without any help from EQ,compression or some sort of repair to start with. Tuning, position in the room, gobos, and mic placement can do everything without the use of electronic crutches.

Makes the mix so much easier.
 
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