Getting that killer guitar tone using DI

Alex Mc

New member
Hi everyone and anyone.
I'm hoping I might get an answer here to an ongoing problem.
I'm recording a demo album in a studio run by a very talented and capable guy, but there's an ongoing problem with achieving the guitar tones I'm looking for.
After using Direct Input, and then using the amp modelling (and pedal modelling) options within the computer produces artificial-sounding, mushy tones.
I'm being told that the digital options on offer should be able to deliver authentic tones, but I'm not hearing it. I want bluesy, Rory Gallagher or SRV tones, by calling up the (allegedly) VOX, Fender or Marshall soundalikes within the computer, and/or the pedals which you can call up to imitate Overdrives, Delays, etc.

Just not happening. Is there a basic 101 to getting authentic tones digitally from anyone who's been there that they can share? We're using Pro Tools.
 
It all depends on what Amp Sim and what settings you're using... there isn't a "Preset" to get exactly what you want... it depends on the guitar, the pickups, the strings, the Amp Sim... you get the idea. Look here if you're new to the world of Amp Sims: HONEST AMP SIM REVIEWS. I personally don't do any "bluesy" stuff, nor am I really familiar with those players (Yes, I know who SRV is, but being a Bowie fan, that's all I've listened to of his...) so I can't really help out on what to reach for in your search for "the perfect tone" but it has almost nothing to do with your "DI" unless you're recording it in some strange way and it doesn't sound like a normal "DI".
 
I would start with an SSS Strat, then try out one of the Fender Reverb amp sims (Twin?) with reverb setting of 1. Then a Marshall JVM series tube combo amp, or JCM 800 Lead if they're in there. Some songs you'll need a fuzz and phaser.
 
Like with anything else you really just turn the knobs til it sounds good, but here's a couple things to keep in mind:

The sound of a decent amp (sim or otherwise) depends on the level that it's being fed. It's generally impossible to even guess what the "proper" level for any given sim might be. Like, we don't know that XdbFS hits the amp the same way that YVolts would hit the real amp. There are generally no controls on the face of the amp to adjust this, but most sims have an Input Gain adjustment somewhere in the wrapper or in a menu or something. If not, you can use a gain/trim plugin before the sim. Completely ignore the meters! Adjust it by ear. This is significantly different than changing the Gain knob on the amp itself. That one usually comes after the "preamp tube", and sometimes actually affects the frequency response - often cutting bass as you turn it down.

The other end of the amp is similar. The Volume knob on the amp itself changes the way that you hit the "power amp" section, and has a real impact on the response and sound of the amp. DO NOT use that knob to adjust the actual output level. There's usually a separate output gain adjustment somewhere, but as with the input you can also use a plugin or even just the track fader.

In general, use the knobs on the amp to adjust the sound of the amp, and use other means to change the actual levels going in and out.
 
Guys, thanks a lot for those prompt replies. I'm due back in the studio tomorrow and the whole session will be about the advice I just got. The engineer might not be happy about me getting outside help (stepping on his "patch", so to speak) but it's all for the good of the project.
I'm happy to get any more input, btw.
I'll let you know how it goes, and I'd be happy to upload some "before" and "after" via PM as we progress, if anyone's interested.
 
Are you just recording dry and doing the amp sims/effects after, or are you hearing the modeled sound when you're doing the takes?
 
Sometimes it is a problem getting a good crunch tone with an amp sim. Putting a compressor/sustainer before the sim. That helps keep the level in the crunch zone without being too clean or too distorted.
 
Are you just recording dry and doing the amp sims/effects after, or are you hearing the modeled sound when you're doing the takes?

I'm DI straight into the computer (dry) and adding sims/effects after. I've asked why we can't do some kind of modeled sound so that I can get the feel for the piece, (bend notes, etc) but apparently we can't.
I find it frustrating, because the dry sound is dead and it's just a case of placing notes in the hope that a modeled sound later can give me what I want (if that makes sense?)
 
---------- Update ----------

Sometimes it is a problem getting a good crunch tone with an amp sim. Putting a compressor/sustainer before the sim. That helps keep the level in the crunch zone without being too clean or too distorted.

Do you mean a modeled compressor/sustainer before the modeled amp sim?
 
---------- Update ----------



Do you mean a modeled compressor/sustainer before the modeled amp sim?
It doesn't matter. I've done both.
I think your biggest problem is not being able to monitor the amp SIM while you are performing.
Most daws that I know about have a way to monitor through an amp SIM. Unless you are using something out of the ordinary, you should be able to do it.
 
I'm DI straight into the computer (dry) and adding sims/effects after. I've asked why we can't do some kind of modeled sound so that I can get the feel for the piece, (bend notes, etc) but apparently we can't.
I find it frustrating, because the dry sound is dead and it's just a case of placing notes in the hope that a modeled sound later can give me what I want (if that makes sense?)

So you're not even monitoring what you're playing? Not sure you'll be able to "get the sound you want" after the fact if you don't even hear what you're really doing... it's one thing to tweak the settings or "Re-amp" so to speak after the fact... but you need to at least be able to tell what you're doing while tracking... sounds like your "Engineer" doesn't know what he/she is doing to me... :|
 
Yeah that’s just unacceptable. One of the biggest rules in customer service is to never say “can’t”. This person needs to figure something out to help you hear and feel what is actually happening. Honestly, this is such a fundamental thing that they should have had it figured out before you even got there.
 
Is there any change OP?

I don't consider myself one to give advice in that matter due to some lack of experience working in actual studios but still I think monitoring what you're playing is detrimental to the recording in every aspect.
 
I'm DI straight into the computer (dry) and adding sims/effects after. I've asked why we can't do some kind of modeled sound so that I can get the feel for the piece, (bend notes, etc) but apparently we can't.
I find it frustrating, because the dry sound is dead and it's just a case of placing notes in the hope that a modeled sound later can give me what I want (if that makes sense?)

Sup Alex,,, Are you sure it's just a DI with a USB ? No interface or other hardware between ?

You definitely need to be hearing the actual tones you want while recording. Well depending on the guitar style/genre/tone maybe.

Is this computer system weak ? Is he concerned about using the Sim during recording ? I could maybe help with his system responses if that is an issue.

Would he be ok loading a free vst amp sim like Amplitube ? There are others for free that would sound better than the DI.

If he using a sim with only an amp, no Cab then that would be it also. There are free IR's (impulse responses) that sound great. There are some plugins/IR loaders that allow placing after the amp sim plugin. And an IR Cab can make all the difference as well.

Could you post the names of the software plugins he is using ?
 
probably not going to be much help, but this is the internet and when does that ever stop people from kibitzing? :D

OP - you mentioned wanting to get a bluesy Rory G or SRV kind of sound. That's definitely going to be tricky going DI. Part of their sound was from playing loud, very, VERY LOUD in the room with the amp affecting the guitar, strings, pickups and yes, the player. Now I realize that isn't always possible these days. But, in the very least, the "engineer" should be able to give you a monitor feed of your performance through whatever amp sim that it takes to get close to that sound. I can't imagine trying to get bluesy bends and vibrato listening to a dry direct guitar sound. Believe me, I've tried.

You said in a studio run by a talented etc etc. Are we talking a real studio, with a live room and a control room, where you could be playing with amps and mics? Or somebody's basement/garage/shed where you are concerned about not disturbing other inhabitants and/or neighbors?
 
Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I don’t get the direct-to-in-box modeling thing. Why use a complex piece of software with a dozen or more tweakable parameters to emulate a caveman-simple tube amp with 3 or 4 knobs. Don’t answer that... I’m being rhetorical. I DO understand that sometimes people to choose or change the “amp” after the fact. Also, I realize that many of the tweakable parameters have to do with the cabinet, mic, and room, make the overall sound much more complex than just the Volume, Treble, and Bass knobs on your typical Deluxe Reverb.

HOWEVER... on my recent foray into DAW recording, I have yet to feel the need to venture into the infinite universe of modeled guitar amps. I have a small Marshall clone and a Fender Champ clone. If one of them doesn’t work for me, the other probably will. I don’t even bother mixing them in my untreated room. I run the amps through an H&K Red Box into either their speaker or into a dummy load. This lets me record silently if I need to. I’ve even found that amp-in-a-box pedals (in my case, an Ampeg-like Catalinbread SFT) through the Red Box gives great tones. In all cases, I can monitor through my speakers or through headphones, and I hear the actual tone that’s being tracked.

The details are unimportant, as there are many different ways to get your tone. My point is, analog methods can be extremely simple, providing great tone with a minimum of tweaking. It also involves the player in determining his tone. Playing guitar is more than just generating a string of notes to be shaped into tones later, completely under the control of some Wizard-Of-Oz-style engineer behind the DAW curtain.

Yes, there are advantages to recording everything in the box, but it’s not simple, and it should not divorce the player from the performance. Not being able to hear yourself playing in real time with some sort of close-enough-to-a-real-amp tone is inexcusable. If your engineer says he can’t do it, he’s either lacking gear or smarts. It would be grounds for simply walking out if I were the player.
 
On the record-wet-or-dry debate, I've always been on the Wet side. How do I know which note to play if I don't know how the last one sounded?
 
When I'm recording guitar, the recorded signal is dry but I'm monitoring it wet through whatever I need to get the feel. With bass I try it the same but may add a little compression on the way in if needed.
 
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but mic'ing an amp even at 1/4 watt volume (even lower than an acoustic guitar's volume) and running that audio into an amp sim makes a 100% better sound. Using a little amp like a Bugera v5 or Vox or Marshall with 8" speakers mic'ed with a 57 then into a sim makes a world of difference over going direct.
 
I agree with PDP. I sometimes mic my Vox VT20+ tube amp at low volume.....just because I can't get too loud.....and it really delivers some nice tones. I use a Shure SM57 or a Sennheiser e935 to capture it all. The amp has a few different amp settings that can be dialed in. Sometimes I go in without an amp...but using my Boss ME-80 pedal array. That too has several amp settings and has seemingly infinite settings for volume and tone and effects of all types.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mick
 
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