[SOLVED] FOCUSRITE 2i2 3RD GEN, MY COMPUTER'S INTERNAL SOUND CARD AND RECORD QUALITY

[Winfred]

Hi!

I'm returning to recording after originally recording two solo piano albums (no vocals, just piano solos) first time since 2005 with the "M-Box". They turned out very nice and sold 4,000 copies without ever touring or advertising etc. Now I'm going to make another attempt to record solo vocals with nylon string guitar that has no plug-in, and with the Focusrite 2i2 3rd Generation and using my original Studio Projects B3 large diaphragm condenser mics, original XLR cables, and mic stands.

I have an 8 yr old business grade Hewlett Packard micro desktop with -- Processor: Intel (R) Core (TM) 2 Duo CPU E8400 3.00 GHz with 8GB RAM 64 bit operating system with Windows 10 Pro. I got it through a computer business that refurbishes computers for low budget people. They tell me this computer is "a good machine. They last forever." I'm still concerned, but it's been flawless owning it 4 yrs now.

MY MAIN QUESTIONS: I'm afraid, now things suddenly dawning on me after ordering the 2i2 and 2 shock mounts, 2 pop filters... about my computer's original internal sound card -- if it could be a major recording quality problem. I'm wondering if business grade computers don't come with great sound cards.

Will I have to buy another sound card for it? If so, what would be a low budget but good sound card for a micro size business grade type of desktop yet at the same time having nice quality recordings?

Will I have to buy another used computer? I really hope not, but be frank with me. Is having a dedicated recording computer vital? Back in 2004 and 2005 I recorded with the same new Dell 4400 desk top PC that I used in general on the internet and other writing projects.

I'm going to record my nylon string guitar and my voice. Others are telling me to take various reactions at coffeehouse open mics as serious good signs, thus my taking this big step to again create albums as I calculated what I've written to be enough for a 64 and 82 minute albums.

Thanks to all! Winfred

 

[Massive Master]

Typically, most on-board audio interfaces (whether "business grade" or otherwise) - well, suck by professional standards. They're typically listenable though. If you're not monitoring through your 2i2 and using your on-board output to feed your monitoring chain, you're still probably in decent shape. But at this point, aren't you planning on using the Focusrite's outputs anyway?

 

[snow lizard]

The idea with the Focusrite is that it replaces the function of your computer's native sound card. It has left and right line outputs for connection to a pair of powered monitors or the playback system of your choice. You should still be able to use the computer sound card for playback if you want, but it has nothing to do with the recorded signal. The Focusrite takes the signal to digital without using the computer sound card.

 

[gecko zzed]

What they said ^^

Main points are:

1 Your computer and its specifications are fine. Audio work is not that demanding.

2 The Focusrite replaces your on-board sound, so you record and playback through it, bypassing your internal sound.

3 Your mikes and other gear are all fine.

 

[Winfred]

What they said ^^

Main points are:

1 Your computer and its specifications are fine. Audio work is not that demanding.

2 The Focusrite replaces your on-board sound, so you record and playback through it, bypassing your internal sound.

3 Your mikes and other gear are all fine.

Hi Gecko!

A big sigh of relief here! So great to think I won't have to buy more equipment or another sound card. I didn't have much money in 2004 and 2005 when I recorded with my M-Box and used Studio Projects B3 large diaphragm condenser mics for my two solo piano albums. Now it's just my vocals, and my guitar -- basically folk music. I can't remember how things worked exactly back in 2004... maybe the same way where all was done within the M-Box, and now it's fortunately the same with the 2i2. Will I still need a remastering service to do the compression, limiting, equalization etc? I remember remastering was needed to make it all sound better and be best broadcast over FM radio, is that right?

I made a big mistake and recorded on my little Tascam DR-05 recorder that runs on 2 AA batteries. I brought 2 songs I burned on a CD directly to an indie FM radio station based in Minneapolis that has a translator in St. Paul. Six days later a DJ texted me they were airing one of my songs actually while he was sending the text. I missed the message and listened later, and after talking to some musicians at an open mic event, via the station's archive. I found they cut if off, a 9 min 34 sec song, at 6:43 and gave on the hour station ID. I think the DJ hadn't listened first as once I heard it as over the stream it sounded very muddled. I wonder if they'll play my re-recorded version with my 2i2, and remastered somewhere at hopefully a reasonable cost. I emailed the DJ and he never responded... sad. Other musicians said it was a big deal to be aired on that station. I told a few musicians before I listened to the archives recording then was embarrassed, but now I don't tell anyone. The station is low wattage and 2,700 members, but I think a lot more nonmembers listen to them.

Will I get good studio quality results with a nylon string acoustic guitar and my voice, and nothing more than the equipment I have? So I don't need a dedicated computer and can work with ProTools and all without having to buy a dedicated computer? Also, I will use the Studio Projects B3 with a pop filter of course for my voice... but I bought a pop filter for the guitar mic too... was that necessary? I also bought 2 shock mounts to make sure nothing vibrates the mics -- was that a good idea, or a waste of money? Thanks very much for your input, and anyone else who might respond to this!

Top of the Day, or Evening!
Winfred

 

[Winfred]

Typically, most on-board audio interfaces (whether "business grade" or otherwise) - well, suck by professional standards. They're typically listenable though. If you're not monitoring through your 2i2 and using your on-board output to feed your monitoring chain, you're still probably in decent shape. But at this point, aren't you planning on using the Focusrite's outputs anyway?

Hi! I have to admit I haven't used the 2i2 yet as I need to get rid of a lot of stuff I've kept for too many years stacked in my bedroom in my 481 sq ft apartment. I ordered the 2i2 because I thought after Christmas they might raise the price from $160, but they haven't yet that I see. I keep it unopened just in case something changes as there's a lot to sort through, donate to GoodWill, send to various sibs etc. I hope you can see my answer to Gecko at post #5 too if you have time. What do you mean by using the Focusrit's outputs? Sorry as I'm not knowledgeable yet and still stalled on my making room and my apt a big mess with the tiny space I have to open those plastic totes and sift through the 15 of them I managed to fit in my small space. Very nice of you to take the time to respond!!

Later,
Winfred

 

[Winfred]

The idea with the Focusrite is that it replaces the function of your computer's native sound card. It has left and right line outputs for connection to a pair of powered monitors or the playback system of your choice. You should still be able to use the computer sound card for playback if you want, but it has nothing to do with the recorded signal. The Focusrite takes the signal to digital without using the computer sound card.

Hi Snowlizard!

Thanks for your response! I'm so un-knowledgeable that all I can say is I guess I'll be listening via the headphones jack on the 2i2. I have to be quiet as possible as I live in a big high-rise apt bldg and the walls are thin. A lady was even complaining about my nylon string guitar and her managing to somehow hear me through the concrete floors here. I can understand if they hear me horizontally as the walls are thin. I even hear my neighbor every time he coughs. He even banged on the wall when over my computer I was playing a recording on YouTube of James Taylor playing, "Sweet Baby James"! All will be the reason I'll be using my bedroom as my studio. If you have time please see my post #5 too!

Thanks for all!
Winfred

 

[gecko zzed]

I didn't have much money in 2004 and 2005 when I recorded with my M-Box and used Studio Projects B3 large diaphragm condenser mics for my two solo piano albums.

What program did you use to record the songs with? You will need to consider that as well.

Will I still need a remastering service to do the compression, limiting, equalization etc? I remember remastering was needed to make it all sound better and be best broadcast over FM radio, is that right?

There is a lot you can do yourself, but it does require an understanding of the tools you have at hand in your application. You may find it easier to get someone else to do the mastering.

Will I get good studio quality results with a nylon string acoustic guitar and my voice, and nothing more than the equipment I have?

You should be able to get pretty decent recordings with your equipment. It is likely that the room in which you record, and your skills and experience will have a greater impact on quality than the gear you have.

So I don't need a dedicated computer and can work with ProTools and all without having to buy a dedicated computer?

There are benefits in having a dedicated computer, but you will be fine working with what you have. If ProTools is your application, that is fine as well.

Also, I will use the Studio Projects B3 with a pop filter of course for my voice... but I bought a pop filter for the guitar mic too... was that necessary?

Pop filters are used to limit the effect of plosives, i.e the bursts of air that accompany consonants such as 'p' and 'b'. They are not necessary for guitar. But having a spare one is not a bad idea.

I also bought 2 shock mounts to make sure nothing vibrates the mics -- was that a good idea, or a waste of money?

Shock mounts are used to prevent the transmission of unwanted noise travelling up through the mike stand, such as bumping the stand and the like. They are worthwhile having.

 

[TalismanRich]

Winfred, I'm surprised you didn't get shock mounts with your SP B3s. My pair came with them, as well as the foam pop filters. I got them about the same time you did, when I first bought my AW16G. I've used them a fair amount in those years.

 

[Winfred]

Hi Gecko zzed!

My program you were asking: ProTools came with M-Box back in 2004 and worked with XP in my Dell 4400 PC. I was told the 2i2 is the successor in that line and liked that ProTools came with it, yet I forgot the term used but sounding like ProTools for beginners, something like that, so I'm wondering about that part effecting quality too. When I recorded my solo piano CD's, the 2 albums, the audio engineer at Oasis CD Manufacturing, Stewart Weaver, was very good. He said he was blown away by my recording quality. I recently tried hard to find him and can't ask the company he worked for as that would be a conflict of interest or whatever as they would want me to go through their own present engineer. I tried to find the graphic designer who I thought might know where he is as it was a small company, he was also very good. So I failed from that angle too. I also paid Oasis an extra $300 each album where they recorded a master one to one ratio on a 12 inch glass CD they would keep in "permanent storage". So about 2 yrs ago I wanted to make some more of my piano CD's and got into a big circular situation with them and realized "permanent" had a different meaning to them, and no apologies. Stewart, back in 2004, and in 2005 too, said my recording (s) was so good he was going to charge me the base price of $60 at that time. I bet it's a lot more now. Back in 2004 I was in a rural setting in a big old farm house with one room dedicated to my recording. I had no shock mounts or pop screens and didn't really know much about how important they are. I had an ideal setting back then in the very quiet north country I miss. Now I'm in a big city in a high-rise in a 481 sq ft apt and a block from a busy police and fire station...

I think the ProTools back then was more advanced than the ProTools that comes with the 2i2, but I'm not sure. I'll hang blankets, (is that usually the case?) by nailing them with tiny nails to my walls to prevent I think it's called phase problems etc. I could switch to omni like I did in 2004 to prevent phase problems, yet my walls are thin, even for a nylon string acoustic guitar and my singing.

I wonder if the pop filter with my acoustic guitar might even make it sound too soft or distant. I suppose one does not know until they try it in my case. Have you hear the filter can actually have a negative effect? I do intricate finger picking and not sure if that is a big deal sound-wise or not, and if a pop filter makes it sound "better". A lot of my verbosity. Any further thoughts is much appreciated, and I understand if you don't have time. Very nice of you to take the time with me. I am very grateful.

Top of the Day, or Evening!
Winfred

 

[gecko zzed]

A pop filter is not necessary on guitar. Having it there, though, won't affect the sound quality.

The ProTools that comes with the 2i2 is most likely a Limited Edition. This is often done to get you started, then you pay to get the full version when you find out the limitations of what you have.

A glass master is what is used to replicate CDs, as opposed to duplicating.

Hanging blankets around the place will absorb some of the higher frequencies in the room. How big is the room? My inclination would be to not worry about blankets, and work with the room as it is. However, it is worthwhile you looking up information on acoustic treatment of rooms.

GZ

 

[Winfred]

Winfred, I'm surprised you didn't get shock mounts with your SP B3s. My pair came with them, as well as the foam pop filters. I got them about the same time you did, when I first bought my AW16G. I've used them a fair amount in those years.

Hi TalismanRich!

Very nice of you to take the time to respond! Wow! I never did get shock mounts with my mics. I bought them as a matched pair from I think it was 8th Street Music for $160 each. I have the foam socks that go over the end of the mic. Are those as good as pop filters? I think I got a package deal, so I ordered a "bundle" with the mics, mic stands, and the XLR cables. Not getting mounts, I was short changed in that regard! No ordering from 8th Street if needed from me! I recorded one 60 minute album (but a lot of takes and rewriting music etc), and one 70 min album. The sound engineer had me record in high resolution, so high they were not readable by home stereos, only by the equipment in the sound engineer's lab. He had me burn them as a "text file" and not an audio file. I forgot the bit depth and frequency... I think 48hz. So he did the mastering, he said minimal, and created a slight reverb, and dithered them down to playable on portable and home stereos. I recorded on a tiny spinet piano, the smallest size of acoustic piano, and with the slight reverb it sounds like a grand piano! Other musicians said I was very fortunate to sell 4,000 CD's. I never toured or advertised. Just word of mouth and some of my own selling wholesale to about 100 gift stores. I also sold some to businesses I figured had sound systems, like clinics with waiting areas etc. I did some playing for tourists that toured a local museum in my hometown. Any thoughts or input would be great... but I understand too if you don't have time. Thanks for the tip about the shock mounts!

Carpe Diem!
Winfred

 

[Winfred]

A pop filter is not necessary on guitar. Having it there, though, won't affect the sound quality.

The ProTools that comes with the 2i2 is most likely a Limited Edition. This is often done to get you started, then you pay to get the full version when you find out the limitations of what you have.

A glass master is what is used to replicate CDs, as opposed to duplicating.

Hanging blankets around the place will absorb some of the higher frequencies in the room. How big is the room? My inclination would be to not worry about blankets, and work with the room as it is. However, it is worthwhile you looking up information on acoustic treatment of rooms.

GZ

Hi! What is replicating a CD and how is that different than duplicating a CD in regard to a glass master? When I two yrs ago tried to do a reorder Oasis CD never made that distinction. They said it was, I think, remembering 14 yrs ago, it was a good idea to have a glass master as they would make future CD's from it. 2 yrs ago they said send one of the original CD's I had to them so they could make copies, which to me was very disappointing. Was the glass master a sales gimmick? I asked directly via emails what happened and never got an answer. I felt bad as at least they could have let me know when they were going to throw them away, plus all the money I spent.

My bedroom here is about 1/3rd of 481 sq ft total of the apartment. My bed room is 10 ft by 11 ft minus my 30 inch by 53 inch closet. I have a lot of stuff. I just officially counted 26 totes of stuff from when I took care of my parents until they transcended and was living in that farm house. I also have some in cardboard boxes.
I don't own a car anymore, for last 2 yrs, but got 288,000 miles out of my car before having to junk it. So I'm transporting things to GoodWill via a two wheeled suite-case I have and taking the city bus ha! I only made one trip so far. I have 8 totes stored in my bathroom -- so I don't have to go through them quite yet. It is a daunting job but a New Year's resolution, plus my deciding to record, my one last chance. I think I'm going to find out I need more time to sell and play in public too much to count on sales extending while I fulfill my bucket list doing world travel on a shoe string budget with my Social Security. Maybe it's all a big mistake, yet I decided to try I'm getting such good responses playing at open mics. Maybe hoping for a few dollars helping my trip is a pipe dream. Do you know much about all that part of it? Thanks again for all!
Carpe Diem!
Winfred

 

[gecko zzed]

The link below gives details on the difference between replication and duplication. The glass master is not a sales gimmick.

This is a good summary:

"Replication and duplication are terms referring to how your discs are manufactured. The words duplication and replication may seem interchangeable, but they are not. Here is the difference:
Replication is the process of creating a glass master and stamper of your data (CD Audio, CD-Rom, DVD video) then injection moulding the discs using that stamper.
Duplication is the process of taking blank, recordable discs (CDRs or DVDRs) and writing the information on them with a laser. "

The Difference Between Replication & Duplication | Replicat

 

[radi0j0hn]

About those 4,000

Where can we hear the first two recordings and then the new one? Will you be making them available NOT on CDs?

Being in the radio biz, I get curious.

Thanks!

John

 

[Winfred]

Where can we hear the first two recordings and then the new one? Will you be making them available NOT on CDs?

Being in the radio biz, I get curious.

Thanks!

John

Hi John!

This is great as you're in radio! The first recording was in a resolution not readable to CD players. I could hear it with my computer. The engineer who did the final remastering, Stewart Weaver with Oasis CD Manufacturing in 2004, I can't find anywhere. I didn't want to email the manufacturer as it would be a conflict of interest or whatever as they are trying to sell what they do. Stewart had me save it as a "text file". I forgot at what resolution. He said I did such a good job that he charged me for only 1 hour of work, the minimum, which then was $60. Oasis was not good as I paid them $200 or $300 to make a 12 inch in diameter glass CD created at 1 to 1 ratio that they said they would keep in "permanent" storage. Their rep said send my original CD and they'd make more. I said I paid for the glass master and they never answered me when I asked what happened. I think they should have paid me back and at least before they threw it out contacted me. I had a glass master also with my second album through them. I know the engineer said they also make the recording so it can be broadcast over FM radio... or meaning over any radio AM or FM I think. I know the engineer did things like "Compression, limiting, equalization" etc. Do you know any good engineers in this day and age? I want to record at home again on my Focusrite 2i2 3rd Generation and with my old Studio Projects B3 condenser mics I still have, and no used since 2004 and then find an engineer to do the remastering. I wish I could find Stewart, but I'm afraid I found his obituary, but not sure. He said he even worked with the group "The Cars" years ago. He would listen to my music in the lab, then at home on his own stereo. He told me The Cars band would listen to the master or proof in their car as I did when I received his proof before I approved, which I thought was something as really a car is a nice enclosed sound chamber. Stewart was very dedicated! Thanks for responding!!

Chiao!
Winfred

 

[Winfred]

Where can we hear the first two recordings and then the new one? Will you be making them available NOT on CDs?

Being in the radio biz, I get curious.

Thanks!

John

Hi Again! I just realized something! You said you're in radio! I don't mean to put you on the spot... but maybe I could send my recordings to you once I do it. My apartment is crammed with stuff I was hanging onto for too long after caring for my mother until she transcended. I'm taking things to GoodWill and also sold some of my books. I thought I was going to get $100 for three big totes I hauled with a dolly via the city bus lines. It was a hassle getting on and off two buses to get there, then returning, and only got $32. Anyways, a lot of work trimming down to make room enough to record in my bedroom. It's a 481 sq ft apartment and thin walls. It's kind of New Age like Folk music, my own. I had a standing ovation I've never seen at open mics. Alot of other things happend like a man in tears shaking my hand, also another lady said she was in tears. I had a 12 minute song and was told I held this guy all 12 minutes. I know for radio I need to shorten my songs and would do so. How long of a song can I record? Also if it's not for your particular station I fully understand. I could send a digital copy, or burn it onto a CD and mail it to you so your station could have it on file.

Sincerely,
Winfred

 

[Winfred]

A pop filter is not necessary on guitar. Having it there, though, won't affect the sound quality.

The ProTools that comes with the 2i2 is most likely a Limited Edition. This is often done to get you started, then you pay to get the full version when you find out the limitations of what you have.

A glass master is what is used to replicate CDs, as opposed to duplicating.

Hanging blankets around the place will absorb some of the higher frequencies in the room. How big is the room? My inclination would be to not worry about blankets, and work with the room as it is. However, it is worthwhile you looking up information on acoustic treatment of rooms.

GZ

Hi Gecko zzed!

You mentioned my Scarlet 2i2 3rd Gen would come with a limited edition of Pro Tools and I found out it comes with Pro Tools First which their website notes is: Every Scarlett 3rd Gen interface comes with a package of software tools to start you on your recording and production journey, including two comprehensive digital audio workstations – Ableton® Live Lite™ and Pro Tools® First Focusrite Creative Pack – Softube’s Time and Tone Bundle; Focusrite’s Red Plug-in Suite; and a choice of one of four of XLN Audio’s Addictive Keys virtual keyboard instruments.

Farther down the pages into it they go on to state:

Pro Tools Features Comparison

When we move onto the features included in each type of Pro Tools then we start to see the differences.

Pro Tools First only offers Track Freeze whereas Pro Tools Standard and Pro Tools HD have Track Commit and Bounce as well as Track Freeze.

Pro Tools First only has limited delay compensation, which compensates for the latency of audio passing through Plug-ins.

There is no Score Editor in Pro Tools First. Other notable omissions in Pro Tools First are Clip Gain, no input monitoring, to name just two. Check the table below for more.

Moving onto the differences between Pro Tools Standard and Pro Tools HD, there are a lot fewer differences now. The key differences that remain are if you need surround, Dolby Atmos or Ambisonics then you will need the Pro Tools HD software, which since Pro Tools 12.6, you can buy on its own, you no longer need to buy Pro Tools hardware to get surround tracks.

Then there are some advanced editing and mixing features that are only available in the Pro Tools HD software, like Scrub and Trim, Automatic Fades, advanced automation features like Write on stop and Write to all enabled, and with Pro Tools HD you can have more than one Video track in a session.


I searched further and found: Three projects stored in the included 1 GB cloud; additional cloud plans available for purchase, providing unlimited projects and the ability to save projects locally. Maximum Sample Rate Supported: 32 bit 96Khz, Maximum IO Hardware Dependent: 4, ASIO, Core Audio, and EUCON support (for third-party interface and control surface integration) YES, Supported plug-in formats (virtual instruments, effects, and sound processors) AAX Native, AAX AudioSuite, Bundled software Xpand!2 multitimbral music workstation (hundreds of sounds), plus over 20 effects, sound processing, and utility plug-ins, Bundled loops 500 MB loop library curated from leading producers.

Does this all mean, with my recording my nylon string guitar and my own vocals only... that I'll have to buy more from ProTools? I liked ProTools years ago in 2004 when I recorded 2 solo acoustic piano CD's. Also the mastering engineer used the same but high level pro version of ProTools. They note only 3 sessions? Does that mean 3 songs, or 3 tries at attempting a final version of a song? I hope to record about an hour long album. I'm not very tech savvy but I think because I used ProTools before I will acclimate to it better again...

Any input from you or anyone is much appreciated!

Top of the Day!
Winfred

 

[JamEZmusic]

You can get by with pro-tools lite, I would say not having input monitoring would be a problem, you are going to have to record and play it back to make sure you have your mic positioning sounding good, hopefully you can listen to a metronome through your cans. Delay compensation is not a problem if you just make sure you have the same plugins inserted on your guitar tracks even if you bypass them, but even if there is a slight timing difference it will not make a blind bit of difference if you record 2 takes anyway. You are probably going to have such a minimal amount of tracks in your project that the demo version of pro-tools will not at all hinder you in any way.

You still get your 24bit recording or 32bitfloat. and 96khz is a higher sample rate than I normally work in anyway. I would perhaps stick to using 96khz for your needs though, a lot of people suggest that the audio is of better quality even if bouncing down to 16bit/44.1khz anyway. I thought there was a cap on the amount of inserts you can put on your tracks with the pro-tools demo, but is this not the case with pro-tools lite then? if you are not compressing or using any outboard gear on the way in then I would say you need to have access to a minimum of 5 spare inserts.

I actually really dislike pro-tools, very overpriced. But they have the advantage where it's a system standard amongst literally 90%+ pro studios so they kind of have the monopoly now.

If it were me, I wouldn't be at all phased if I had to resort to using garageband as a free option (I'm on mac though), by the sounds of it you will have more freedom to write and it will certainly make your job easier if not for the input monitoring issue you will have to face.

 

[gecko zzed]

Protools First does not sound very attractive to me with the assorted limitations it has, some of which are dealbreakers for me. But you should be able to do what you need to do with it.

However, you can get far better. My personal recommendation is to try Reaper. It is a powerful DAW with a low CPU footprint. You can download it and get an uncrippled free trial for 60 days. At the end of that trial ytou can continue to use, except for a nag screen encouraging you to buy it. A discount licence is $60.

Reaper also has a very active help forum, and there are many video tutorials on how to do things.