Electric Guitar Recording techniques

Jmazza

New member
Hi everyone,

I've been dabbling in recording for a little bit and have a small home set up.

I have a question about recording electric guitars. I am micing my amp which is an Orange dual terror with an Orange 2x12 with a SM57. I play alternative rock, so nothing really metal or anything. It seems that when I record my guitars I can never get that "big" guitar sound, and they tend to sound thin. I double them and pan hard left and right but I still can't manage to get a decent fullness. My interface is a Presonus Quantum 2.

Is there any advice anyone can give? Does a full guitar sound matter more on the source signal or is it achieved in the mixing process? Is it mic placement? More guitar tracks?

Here is a link to some of my recordings, the "November sessions" are more recent.

You can hear some of my recordings on my Bandcamp, user name is Refractionmusic. (I can't post any links yet)

Thanks in advanced! Joe
 
As ever...Guitar Amp Recording |

Then, peeps seem universally hissed off woth their early attempts at recording electric guitar. "More is less" seems to be one factor? Less volume than you think you need, less distortion. Then there is the "Pig's ear" factor. I seem to have read a few negative reports of the Orange Terror? What speakers are in the 2x12? V30s for example are quite harsh and "middy".

Have you tried re-amping? That allows you to loop a clip whilst you faff about with amp controls and mic positions, listening the while on cans.

No doubt some ACTUAL guitar playing recordists will come in soon!

Dave.
 
One thing comes to mind immediately.
Doubling tracks using the same amp.

That ain't gonna give you bigness.
You should change it up as much as possible.

'Big' guitars involve different amps, different guitars and different parts being played.
Then panned hard left and right. You want what is in the orher channel to be different, not the same.


Look at AC/DC. Those guitars are HUGE.
Different amps, different guitars and different guitar parts being played by the brothers. It all adds up to a wall of guitars.
And they're not that distorted.

Another thing. One's 'bedroom sound', while it may sound fat and chunky, won't sound good in a mix.
One tends to compensate for lack of a drummer and bass player. In a mix, all that low end just muddies it up.

Edit: your interface has nothing to do with it.

The orange tiny terror....eh. Not a fan. But even with that you could get decent tones.

Try very different tone, gain, ect settings to get different sounds out of it. Play around. Get out of this mindset of 'this is my sound'.
Experiment.
Good luck, have fun.

:D
 
Music | Refraction

Some good suggestions given already.

Honestly from listening to the November tracks, the guitars seem well represented. I'm wondering where the low end is. I'm thinking you could probably pull the bass up 6 to 9 dB in those tracks.
 
Maybe post an example of what you're trying to achieve with your guitars? The demos you've posted sound pretty decent guitar wise to me... but perhaps with an example of what you want them to sound like someone may have some insight into the techniques involved in getting them. I can say that most of a "big" guitar sound is in the arrangement... it's not in adding more of the same riff... you could try to do your normal double tracked l/r guitar parts and also add a secondary double tracked l/r part with another guitar playing a different part... another trick in the past is to play the same guitar part on the D string of your bass through your same guitar rig to add some thickness to the part. Perhaps you could record your Dry guitar signal (not a mic'd cab) and test out some different IRs which may get you the sound you're looking for.
 
In my 30+ years of recording I have found only ONE truth to getting "BIG SOUNDING" anything is to record a big sounding source.

Of course one ears' "big" is another ears' mud.

Really truly BIG guitars need really truly space and volume.... Since it sounds like you don't have that you will have to rely on technique.

There's a ton of information being referred to here and other forums about just this very thing. I can only add what I know to be true no matter what........

Three things: Mic placement- Closer to the center of the cone= more high-end less low end. Spatial depth: Even in small spaces you need to create the illusion of size with close and room mics. And ALWAYS take a clean DI right off of the guitar to allow your library of sounds to enhance the mics' capture. You can create size with this capture by manipulating the time if nothing else. Source: This will include all the parts of the source itself. In your case the guitar and how it's set up to sound.....how it's played and the arrangement of it's use in the music.....the amp and all it's tonalities.....everything else I've mentioned and how it sounds on your playback system.
 
In my 30+ years of recording I have found only ONE truth to getting "BIG SOUNDING" anything is to record a big sounding source.

Of course one ears' "big" is another ears' mud.

Really truly BIG guitars need really truly space and volume.... Since it sounds like you don't have that you will have to rely on technique.

There's a ton of information being referred to here and other forums about just this very thing. I can only add what I know to be true no matter what........

Three things: Mic placement- Closer to the center of the cone= more high-end less low end. Spatial depth: Even in small spaces you need to create the illusion of size with close and room mics. And ALWAYS take a clean DI right off of the guitar to allow your library of sounds to enhance the mics' capture. You can create size with this capture by manipulating the time if nothing else. Source: This will include all the parts of the source itself. In your case the guitar and how it's set up to sound.....how it's played and the arrangement of it's use in the music.....the amp and all it's tonalities.....everything else I've mentioned and how it sounds on your playback system.

I REALLY don't know but, maybe some of the convolution "spaces" could work for the OP? I think these are getting easier and cheaper (free?) to use?

And I read somewhere a while ago although in reference to ACOUSTIC guitar..."To get a really great guitar recording.
Rule One: get a great guitar. Rule One A: get a great guitar player"!!

Dave.
 
Here is what I really like as far as guitar sound. It’s a song by jimmy eat world, Nothing Wrong.

I can’t post links yet but it is on YouTube Apple Music and Spotify.

Now I know that I’m not going to get this exactly as there are a ton of factors but I just like how they are mixed and big sounding.

Thanks! Joe
 
I REALLY don't know but, maybe some of the convolution "spaces" could work for the OP? I think these are getting easier and cheaper (free?) to use?

And I read somewhere a while ago although in reference to ACOUSTIC guitar..."To get a really great guitar recording.
Rule One: get a great guitar. Rule One A: get a great guitar player"!!

Dave.

I actually like some of the convolution reverbs. I'm a big fan of the Valhalla plug too. Convolution verbs are hard to grasp the concept of unless you've actually been in spaces that they are emulating and then they make sense. Chances are the newbie or bedroom recordist hasn't researched this to any extent and perhaps gives up on all the controls simply because they don't relate to what they're going to achieve with them and if they don't stumble onto a preset right away.
 
One thing comes to mind immediately.
Doubling tracks using the same amp.

That ain't gonna give you bigness.
You should change it up as much as possible.

'Big' guitars involve different amps, different guitars and different parts being played.
Then panned hard left and right. You want what is in the orher channel to be different, not the same.
:D

Like anything, this really depends.

I'll start with a disclaimer, I mostly record my own instrumental rock music, so for me getting the hugest possible rhythm sound ever isn't really ideal, since I want a full-sounding rhythm track, but I also want to make sure there's space in the mix for my lead guitar sound. If size were the only consideration and I dind't have to worry about fitting in a melody guitar, then I might get more aggressive here, maybe not changing amps but using multiple tracks of more contrasting tones, say a bright and cleaner sound layered against a darker gainier one, etc.

But, I think you CAN get awfully "big" sounding guitars by double-tracking through the same amp, even with similar/the same tones on L and R.

1) Dial in your amp sound to sound good when listening to it right in front of the cab, where the mic will be positioned, rather than "in the room," listening from playing position with your ear ~6 feet off the floor and 10 feet back.
2) Remember that the guitar is a midrange-heavy instrument, and distortion is a form of compression. The bass on 10, mids at 0, treble at 10, gain at 10 knob settings is a great way to ensure your guitars will become white noise in a mix. Let the bass guitar cover the low end (I often high pass pretty aggressively), and try at least keeping your midrange setting neutral. Try also using less gain than you think, as my experience has been double-tracked guitars often sound "gainier" than single takes.
3) Keep your performances TIGHT. The "size" of double tracking comes from the slight inconsistencies between the two takes, but if they are big enough to become truly audible, you go from "big" to "sloppy" in a hurry. You do need two sepperate takes, though, copying and pasting one take and panning them L and R doesn't give you the size or stereo spread. Ditto with making sure your bass and guitars are really locked in together.

Those are kind of the basics... Beyond that... Quad tracking and mixing a pretty clean guitar back a bit against a more distorted one can give you some size - I actually really like singlecoils for this, because they're basically all attack, so overdubbing a really shitty, bright, broken up sound with a really thrashy top end against a big, thick, chunky rhythm guitar can actually sound surprisingly awesome. Changing guitars between your L and R take but playing through the same amp can be interesting too, but be careful with intonation here, as this can sound sour with a poorly intonated guitar. I'm a Devin Townsend fan so I'll sometimes add a little bit of light delay to rhythm tracks on slower groovier stuff, for some extra space and ambience. Reverb can help here too, but go easy on either. Also, simply making sure your cab is really mic'd ideally for what you're doing can go a long way - spending some time eperimenting with different mic positions can go a long way here.
 
Edit: your interface has nothing to do with it.

Well, I don't disagree that of all the things that could be the culprit, OP's interface is probably way down the list. But, because I just encountered this scenario at a session last month, it's perhaps worth mentioning:

I was assisting on a remote session doing guitar overdubs at the guitarist's rehearsal studio. Ordinarily when I'm the engineer for these remote gigs I bring all my own gear, but since the guitarist was the artist and producer and engineer I just showed up with a few mics and stands. His laptop, his interface.

He was getting a great sound in the room (EVH guitar into a silverface Fender Twin). Using tried & true mic'ing techniques that I've gotten stellar results from numerous times in the past, the recorded results were...crap. Thin, anemic, no depth, no body. I changed out the mic cable. I changed out the mic. I monitored through headphones, in case there was a problem w/ the powered speakers we were listening through. We tried recording with lower levels. Nothing fixed it.

So I changed out his interface/laptop (Presonus something-or-other into a Macbook running Logic) for mine (Tascam US-1641 into a PC running Cubase). Problem solved.

No idea what the problem was, but at least we were able to resume and complete the session.
 
I would move the mic around. Every speaker has a sweet spot. Both distance and placement between center and edge. A lot of the big sound I think your are refering to comes from the air pushed by the speaker cone, hitting the mic diaphram. Low Bedroom volume will work for making a recordable sound, but volume pushes the air.
 
not a fan of Orange amps myself... however i am thinking you could do yourself a favor and use a tube amp... i would suggest for overdrive try an Ibanez tube screamer in front of a decent tube amp such as a Fender deluxe reverb...or if you can get hands on or have a pal that owns a mesa boogie...you can do wonders with a the warmth of a tube amp... also try utilizing the sm57 and about 2 -3 feet slightly above even with a large diaphram condensor ... run 2 tracks but you don't need to pan them...sometimes you can fatten up by 2 seperate identical tracks by ever so slightly time delay 1 of the tracks to a milisecond or 2 just a "microscopic nudge" ... don't go too far or it will sound like a delay...this is a trick that Queen used in sessions...even tho i am mainly country and southern rock to blues... i can play all genres including alternative and metal ( been playing over 50 years ) yes you read that correct...i am older but not out of touch... go to kevhenderson.com and listen to some of the stuff there...you will have to skip around to find the more "rock stuff" Falling out of fear is a good example or Cherokee Rose, 2 Lovers,1 Blue ridge Spring , and satin Spyder have over driven guitar utilizing Boss compressor sustainer and tube Screamer through a Mesa Boogie rectoverb 50... sm57 mid cone at slight angle and believe it or a not a CAD GXL2200 mosfet large Diamphran condensor into A Mackie 24x8 console into Alesis ADAT HD24 Lightpiped into MOTU 828 mkII to get it into the computer using Windows 7 Pro and Sonar 8.5 producer...
 

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My first thought was, "where's your mic?" If it's up against grill and off center slightly, that's textbook placement. But you might try more than one mic. 2, 3, or more spaced farther away from speaker and even try some gimmicy stuff like putting one in a box. Or behind a chair, play with it to kind of duplicate where audience ears are in the club. And if you can, turn it up to club/venue volumes.
 
Not hearing a problem with the guitars on the track I listened to. Louder and fuller guitars don't necessarily sound more powerful. Sometimes the opposite is true.
 
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