Drum recording advice?

VesuviusJay

Poser Roaster
Greetings percussion guru's! I am planning my first encounter with recording a full drum kit. I am building my sound room as I type. I just thought I'd start this thread to get some advice on preliminary preparations so that I have a smooth and productive experience.

First of all I have a set of stageworks drum mic's that consist of kick mic, and 3 dynamic mics. I know I also need a couple of overhead condensors. Are there any other mic's or preparations I should make for capturing the sound? I've know the more work you put in the prepation, the easier the mix down and mastering. So this is one for you seasoned drum recording veterans.

Also please advise as to what I should use as far as pre-recording effects such as compression, etc.

Lastly but not leastly, Im recording drums for fast death metal and grind core. Therefore I am going to have extremely fast double bass drum riffs and I need to EQ and set up accordingly so I don't miss a beat.

Thanks Everyone, this BBS is priceless!
 
I posted this before but I thought it was relevant

I have a technique for close micing a drum set and creating a virtual "stereo recording" as if it were recorded several feet away with a pair of stereo mics. Here it is.

Step one: Don't worry about phase considerations when micing the drums because we will correct for that later in our DAW. Just put them where it sounds good and DON'T EQ THEM, pick the right mic.

step 2: record the track and if you have the ability to record 8 tracks at once, do it...(And let the english see you do it!) Then assign each mic to its own seperate track. Next... align the attack and phase of all eight tracks so that they line up perfectly to the nth degree.

step 3:Make a copy of those tracks and place them on tracks 9-16. We will NOT be using any panning in our technique to create our sound stage because we will be using delays to simulate that. Normalize all your tracks, remove silence, so forth and so on.

We are just using the delay effect to move a particular track in time, as opposed to using it as an effect. Now assign tracks 9-16 to an aux bus and attach a delay to that. Don't use any feedback or predelays or anything.

In this effect we will be creating the "delay of the distance between our VIRTUAL Stereo mics".I hope you are all familiar with that technique.

Now how far apart are those 2 mics? A couple inches... which is equivalent to a couple milleseconds at most. Sound would of course reach those 2 mics at different (very small) times. Pick a delay of say 5ms and set it to the delay on the auxillary bus. Make sure the time you choose keeps the coherent phase response you created earlier, or you will get comb filtering at output.

step 4: Pan the first eight tracks hard left, and pan the next eight tracks hard right.Send the output of the aux bus of tracks 9-16 and the outputs of tracks 1-8 to the main output.

Now you have a true stereo representation of the 2 virtual mics and the distance betwween them and the sound "effect" equivalent of thier spacing.

Step five: Optional. Now you need to calulate the distance the drum kit is from those 2 virtual mics 10 ft, 20 ft however far back you want it sound like the live recording was made. We are not done though.

Think about this though. isn't the floor tom further away than say the kick or the toms? In this... wouldn't the sound from the kick and toms reach the stereo mics BEFORE the sound from the floor tom? It maybe a short distance but it matters.

Now assign a delay to all sixteen tracks and set them to full wet and 0 dry signal... with all DELAY "effects" OFF.
Now... which ever drums are the same distance from the mic cluster, you can remove the delay from that track and it's corresponding COPY track.

Don't mess with the delay that is on that aux bus. That has already been set for our stereo mic simulation.Only on the individual delays of the individual tracks are we making adjustments now. But what ever change you do to the snare on track one, you should be doing to the snare track on track 9 and so forth for all the tracks.

Now... set different delay times for the individual drums. Set the snare to 3ms, the cymbals to 4 or 5 ms, the floor tom to 8 ms and make sure that all the delays are smaller than 15 ms. The further the drum is from the mic, the larger the delay for its track should be and vice versa.The numbers i picked are not actual representations of the calculations just some numbers in the ballpark for effect.

Now just ad whatever type of reverb you want on the master output and run the final stage through that to simulate your room environment.Here you can do anything that you want. Just make sure that all tracks are getting to the reverb... POST individual track delays... and POST the auxillary bus delay that tracks 9-16 should be going through.

You could even go a step further and assign an eq to each individual delay to accomodate for high frequency roll offs of certain frequencies in regard of the distance to the VIRTUAL stereo mics.

Your gonna need a fast computer to hear it in real time because of all the delays. If it's not fast... just make the settings that I said and render it down. You will most likely be happy with the results.You probably won't be able to pinpoint WHY it sounds better but it just will, and you will know it.

This can all be done with 8 mics, a sound card with 8 inputs, an 8 channel mixer, and cakewalk Pro 8 or 9 with cakewalks standard effects. For your reverb effect try using Sonic foundry's acoustic mirror plugin. (That runs like crap in cakewalk by the way.) Or a good outboard reverb.

Let me know how it turns out if you try it.
 
jfreeman, i sure would like to hear an mp3 of that technique in action, if my computer is fast enough to hear it.......
 
sweet dude i'm another death metal?black metal drummer here,but i do also play some jazz and alot of prog rock,prety much anything.

wants some tipis for death metal??? i know it's important for the bassdrum in that genre and the snare,so what you wanna do is get a drum mic you have for the kickdrum and put it in the bass drum and get as close as you can to the beaters on the inside,this will give you the regular sound of tyhe bassdrum plus the noise of the beaters and you'll get what seems like a triggering sound but it's not.it's really neat trick acutally.

as for the snare, put a regular snare mic as close as you can to the top head and just record it,and when you play blasts beats if you find you go faster and you can hear the snare less,go in highlight the part that sounds less and amplify it to match the other regular snare hits so you'll find everything level.



hope it works out bro and i wanna hear some recordings,theres not to many deathmetal drummers here so it's nice to see someone else here that appreciates that music
 
I can only assume by your desciption that this'death metal' is going to involve a whole bunch of drum beats with very little space between the notes...

Is this about accurate?

Okay....so you're gonna need to close mic everything you plan to hit as tightly as possible to avoid a lot of 'bleed' from one drum hit to another and you're going to need drum mics with a very low sensitivity threshhold....One thing I've always preached to drum maniacs is this....BEFORE you record anything, get down close to your drumkit and find and destroy all the little squeaks and added sounds and for gods sake tune the things so one tom or snare doesnt excite another different drum you happen to not be smacking at the time. Anyway....thats my rant...

good luck....remember ...tight micing for fast insane drumming


unless you just want a steady roar and then by all means just set up in the middle of a warehouse somewhere, throw up the overheads and wail away!
 
jfreeman373 said:


Step one: Don't worry about phase considerations when micing the drums because we will correct for that later in our DAW.


um.. what?

geeze I'm ehxasted after reading all that. Seems like a big waste of time, where as something like "worrying" about phase during initial mic placement seems a lot more productive. Don't get me wrong, I think that it's a very intresting, amazing idea and probably sounds killer for what you do. But i think it is absolutly unappropriate advise for someone who basically asks "hey, I've never recorded drums before- got any advise?"

recently I put a pair of MXL 603's about 8 feet in front of the kit, spaced pair almost 2 feet apart, and a 57 on the snare. I was mostly just goofing around, but it sounded amazing. The Kick sound was the closest I have ever gotton to "the" sound, which absolutly floored me. I never would have imagined. That mostly has to do with my room and that kit, but in how i like to record drums this is everything. I usually have to mic a specific kit, specific drummer in a specific room at least 3 times to figure out what i want to do with it. The guy with the sticks is the most important part. Recorded a drummer once, a friend of mine who I had heard play many times. The kit had already been set up in the studio. Really crappy kit. We replaced some cymbals and before they got there for the session I sat down and tuned the toms to where they sounded good (my old drummer had a 14! piece kit -we got really good at tuning! lol) The guitarist and the bass player come in. I'm sitting behid the kit playing "wow man, you made the kit sound great!" was the consensus. The drummer comes in (why are drummers always late BTW :D) sit down plays- he likes it at first, then after playing a bit decides it just not right, retunes the toms- and were off. I'm glad he did- cuz they fit his style and the music as a whole. Anyways, enough of my rambling. Not even sure what the point of all this is. hmm... oh yeah. just like Col Forbin's signatures in all his emails.

"don't forget to listen"
 
Re: Re: Drum recording advice?

jmproductions said:
Ok, just what is grind core? I may be showing some signs of age here...

Grindcore: a noisy heavy fast attack. With a kind of punk feel to it but played metal style w/ cookie monster vokills. Ala carcass, sublime cadveric decompostion, napalm death.

Deathmetal: and more complex beast made up of intense blast beats, down tuned guitars, constant speed licking, w/ some technical flair. Think of slayer x4. A la cannibal corpse, origin , nile, Incantation.
 
well the reason i said not to worry about it is cause you will never get it perfect to begin with, me personally, I always fix it.I mean ABSOLUTE phase coherency.

I know it's more than what a beginner would ask for, but i didn't see anywhere else to post for drums or maybe I didn't look hard enough. I think it works really well.Maybe some people will try it.

I will post a short sample of the drums that I am working on now and maybe you will hear what it does. It's already mixed with other instruments and I don't feel like looking for the disk the drums are on so don't worry to much about the rest of the mix cause I'm still working on it.
 
James HE said:
The guy with the sticks is the most important part.

So true. Focus on getting the kit and the technique down. Bruce's and JFreeman posts both sound like very interesting, effective setups. However, as a beginner/novice, I would highly advise saving that stuff untill you're more comfortable with it all. Right now, keep it simple. JamesHe's method is a great place to start out. A couple mics overhead or out front (whichever suits you), one kick and one snare, and have at it. Gradually work your way up to more complex arrangements down the road.

If the kit sounds good and the drummer has great technique, almost any mic arrangement will sound good. If he sucks, then it doesn't matter, because it will sound like shit in the end anyway. :D
 
Umm I would get a shure 57... for the snare. Then I would build two long kick drum tunnels out of something(technique described in here somewhere) so you can mic the kicks much better...
just my 2 cents
 
Gidge said:
jfreeman, i sure would like to hear an mp3 of that technique in action, if my computer is fast enough to hear it.......

Wise guy.

Don't pay any attention to the frequency related stuff I know it needs work, but I don't have heat in the studio right now, so I networked the files to thr house and mixed on headphones. The main thing to listen for here is how the drums sound.... image wise. I think it's safe to say they don't sound like they are close miced... but they are.



Please... no cracks about the rest of the mix. I know already.
 
Trigger Them!!!!

Almost every quality sounding death/grind band uses triggers be it on the kicks, or snare or whatever. If you trigger the snare and the kick you don't have to worry about blast beats being as even as you steady 32/16th note parts. It will level out all of that shit. Triggers are a godsend to any deathmetal drummer. Mainly because the sound this style demands is not a natural drum sound...it is synthetic made to ring sharply, and clearly through the raoring slabs of downtuned madness. Trigger and you will be happy. Listen to this song...the drums are triggered, and it is about as fast as any dethmetal at the end. Hateless Void, i think this is the type of drum sound you would want for grindcore.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2111&alid=-1
 
J Freeman... What happens when you get your two overheads in phase with the snare, and they are out 100degrees or more with the kick? Fix it, and then your snare is out. Gotta get it right from the start.
Break out the tape measure, thats how I do it. :) Almost. I use a string with markings on it.
Peace!
 
Again, Tube is right. Sliding and flipping phase won't fix everything. That's another reason to not pan drums when doing your initial setup. The drum stick measuring technique and listening have been keeping me out of trouble.
 
if you record on a 'puter, you can just drag the waveforms into alignment. no need to worry about phase problems in cubase...
 
RecTechMin said:
if you record on a 'puter, you can just drag the waveforms into alignment. no need to worry about phase problems in cubase...

So you are saying that I can toss two overheads up wherever, record a session, and then just line the snares up and they are in phase? Well, I already knew that. The point I was making above is... what if your kick is 70degrees out of phase between the mics after you line up the snare?
No sir... tape measure for me please. :)
The 2 stick method is quite nice, though.
 
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