Been given a Neumann TLM 170 - is it really necessary?

Bubba Spear

New member
I last logged into here well over a year ago.

Started off with an Electrovoice RE20 dynamic - because I liked the green colour... seriously - and it has done me well for my needs: narration & spoken word... no music. The audio interface is a cheap red thing that I can't even remember the name of (British company).

I'm an actor, not a studio person. Smell of the greasepaint etc :) However, someone has just yesterday given me a very old Neumann TLM 170 (not the 'R' model) microphone, simply because they thought I could use it. The only thing missing is the purple badge, but the two pins for it are still stuck in the body. It's been in a box for at least 15 years, before that in a studio. Now I know that most people get excited at the name Neumann, but not me; does nothing for me. I also have two very large, free standing acoustic baffles and that's it.

I hate twiddling knobs and switches, and anyway, don't know what they do on this mic. With my RE20, I've never even touched them, and I can record just fine. It's going to be a complete hassle unplugging everything and going through the nightmare of trying to set stuff up again. So, due to my simple needs and lack of other equipment, should I just stick with the RE20 and forget about the TLM 170? That's going to cheese somebody off if I do :)

I'm assuming that I speak into the side that the badge should have been on. Is that correct? Also, there's tiny black wheel, with what looks like speech bubbles cartoon characters would have words inside. Which one of those do I need for spoken word, narration etc?

Some smartypants person is also telling me that I'll also have to upgrade my audio interface thing, and if that if I'm not willing to do it myself, I could well find another parcel on my doorstep. Reminds me of those enormous multi-part hi-fi systems , when all you really needed was a single box with everything contained within. Why would I need something with a thousand plugs on the back when I only have a single microphone. Madness!

Thanks again. Apologies for sounding so negative. I'll probably get banned :p

Bubba
 
Hi there,
Congratulations on your new toy. :)

The audio interface is a cheap red thing that I can't even remember the name of (British company).

Can you find the name or, at least, take a look at it to see if it has a switch for +48V/phantom power?
You'll need that for the TLM microphone.

I'm assuming that I speak into the side that the badge should have been on. Is that correct? Also, there's tiny black wheel, with what looks like speech bubbles cartoon characters would have words inside. Which one of those do I need for spoken word, narration etc?


Yes; You would speak into the badge side.

Those options are polar pattern; Whether the microphone picks up sound equally from all around it, or predominantly from the front.
If your baffles are doing a good job then omni (the full circle) might be the best option.

If not, cardioid (the heart shape) is probably the best choice.

Cardioid will sound bassier the closer you get. This is generally true for cardioid microphones but the EV RE20 is designed to diminish this, so it may come as a surprise to you.

Some smartypants person is also telling me that I'll also have to upgrade my audio interface thing, and if that if I'm not willing to do it myself, I could well find another parcel on my doorstep. Reminds me of those enormous multi-part hi-fi systems , when all you really needed was a single box with everything contained within. Why would I need something with a thousand plugs on the back when I only have a single microphone. Madness!

If your interface doesn't have phantom power then smartypants is correct.
If it does have phantom power, and you've been happy with the performance when using the re20, then you don't need to upgrade.

They probably mean upgrading to something with higher quality preamps, though, rather than something with more I/O.
You're right; The latter would be pointless for V/O.


I'd certainly try it out, even if you're happy with the re20. At worst you won't like it and you'll know if it works or not, which is good if you plan to sell it on.
 
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If it works it looks like it is worth around £800 but that would be for a near mint model. Capacitor mics have more to go wrong than dynamics like the EV and they do not like damp! First task is to plug it into something with phantom power, an AI or a mixer. You would be hard pressed to find either without it these day. Music store, theatre pan deck?

If it works ok you then have another problem! A large diaphragm capacitor mic is a very different beast to use for voice than a close talking dynamic.

Dave.
 
Hello Steenamaroo and ecc83

Firstly, I apologize to all the good and knowledgeable people here. I'm expecting someone to say, "Why can't you just bug off and leave us alone" :)

The Audio interface is a Focusrite Scarlett Solo. It does have a phantom power button that lights up. I was told to plug it through a blue coloured Cloudlifter thing, and that this would make the microphone (RE20) work properly. I can actually tell the difference there. It definitely improves things. I also know that I can't use the Cloudlifter with the Neumann, because it's a condenser microphone. The audio interface they want to replace it with is big (huge) and not a nice colour. It looks like something out of a Frankenstein film. Anyway, before the month is out, someone is going to pop over, possibly with a another microphone. I'm also using Triad Orbit mic stands and attachments which I find to be extremely useful and fun to play with.

I'll do the polar pattern thing as you described Steenamaroo. I like one baffle in front and one behind. It sounds good like that.

Slightly off-topic, and because I can't stop chuckling at the seriousness of audio people: a couple of years ago, I had a series of outside gigs across England. The sound engineer was by all accounts a genius and knew everything about everything to do with sound. So obsessed was he, that he'd carry around a tiny portable machine and just record sounds whenever he was 'excited'. Leading up to the first gig, he spent ages getting the wireless mics to work. Kept on telling me not to forget I was wearing it, and to be careful of what I said. The gig proceeded and all went well, but I was so stressed out by all the mechanical/electrical/audio stuff that as I uttered the final scripted words and walked off into the distance, the pure relief resulted in my saying out loud, "Thank F...K for that". It didn't go down well with the producers, I can tell you that for nothing :p Towards the end he stopped speaking to me altogether.

ecc83: I've had to do stuff in studios before, but usually just overdubbing words that I've already spoken live . Never taken note as to whether they were condenser or dynamic. I'm not really a voiceover bloke.

Thanks again, you're right; I'll see how I go with it for a week. Without this forum, I don't think I'd ever have agreed to the initial run of recordings. Seems like only yesterday.

Bubba
 
Hello Steenamaroo and ecc83

Firstly, I apologize to all the good and knowledgeable people here. I'm expecting someone to say, "Why can't you just bug off and leave us alone" :)

No need! That's what the community is here for.
Although, reading your story there, I might post "Thank god he's gone", with tongue firmly in cheek, when we're done here. ;)

The Audio interface is a Focusrite Scarlett Solo.
It does have a phantom power button that lights up.

Good. That's all you need. :)

I was told to plug it through a blue coloured Cloudlifter thing, and that this would make the microphone (RE20) work properly.

The cloudlifter boosts the signal coming from the microphone.
That's really useful with dynamic microphones (re20) because their output is generally much lower than capacitor microphone output.
Put simply, you won't need it for the Neumann, so just plug in mic-cable-interface, turn on phantom, and you're set. :)
 
Ha, ha

Fear not, when I'm done with this upgrade nonsense, I'll probably vanish from the forum for another year or so. Until someone calls me and says, "It's all very good, but have you considered maybe using a better..." (which is where I'll quietly end the call).

Bubba
 
First off. It IS a Neumann. There's a certain cachet that goes with these and for good reason. However. Not my first choice for any vocal singing, spoken word, recorded voice calling cattle in. However, you may find that the 'capacitor' part of it gives you things that the RE20 never will. Sometimes this is good....sometimes this is why the RE20 is the perfect mic. Good luck with the new toy and don't stress over free Neumanns.....Not many people get those for Christmas.
 
The thing to remember is that while we blather on ab out technicalities, the real arbiter of success is your ears. If you put on headphones and hear in your voice the positives and negatives of how you performed a piece, then swapping the microphone can be sobering. Watch out for strange things to be revealed just by a mic swap. The common ones are gaps in front teeth, where there's a bit of a whistle/wheezy sound very evident on some mics, or a strange lack of definition. The condenser might reveal positive or negative features of your voice. Then you can make a decision on which you like best. Some of it is cultural. In the UK, we're used to our broadcasters using condenser mics, while in the US the popularity of Shure and EV dynamics has tailored the sound to the people. I've heard Americans listen to our BBC radio here and query the sound as being 'wrong'. It's a mix of what you like vs what the audience like.

I'd urge you to at least try it and see if it's better or worse to your ears.
 
from the OP it sounds like your best bet is to sell the Neumann. Otherwise it's just going to be a gateway drug to gear-itis!
 
It’s a very nice mic, it doesn’t have the hyped top end like a lot of the more popular Neumann mics. It’s supposed to be very natural sounding but, it’s low sensitivity needs a preamp with a bit of gain. If there is nothing wrong with it you should really try it out. It’s a real nice mic. It’s main usage now days seems to be on loud sources, and vocals that need less highs.
 
I would not call 8mV/Pa a "low" sensitivity? Yes many LDC mics are more than 6dB hotter but 8mv is some 16dB over an SM57 and getting on for 18dB hotter than a 7b. There cannot be an AI on the market that will have bother with that?

There is a "KISS" principle to keep the signal path as clean as possible unless you want to introduce "attitude"? Once done however it cannot be undone.

The TL is in fact comparable to many SDCs for sensitivity but has a rather better noise performance than most. I'd 'ave in a heatbeat!

Dave.
 
I
I would not call 8mV/Pa a "low" sensitivity? Yes many LDC mics are more than 6dB hotter but 8mv is some 16dB over an SM57 and getting on for 18dB hotter than a 7b. There cannot be an AI on the market that will have bother with that?

There is a "KISS" principle to keep the signal path as clean as possible unless you want to introduce "attitude"? Once done however it cannot be undone.

The TL is in fact comparable to many SDCs for sensitivity but has a rather better noise performance than most. I'd 'ave in a heatbeat!

Dave.
Probably should have said slightly lower output. It works great on loud sources. It’s not the quietest mic, although it’s has low self noise but, it’s less than a U87, or M49, or TLM 103 etc. It’s a very good mic, I’d use one if I had one.
 
Hi Bubba,

So you don't get stressed out about the Neumann I think that maybe you should send it to me, I don't mind paying the postage. I can then use it in my studio and do all the worrying for you.

I know I know, it's very kind of me to offer, but it's what I do to help people out.

Cheers
Alan.
 
Won't waste space quoting all the above replies. Thanks for all the tips and insights. I'm going to start playing with it now. Give me a week and I'll post my feelings. This will be what an 'ordinary' individual hears. Not an acoustic expert or sound engineer. Just the average British bloke off the street.

I think that the audio interface thingy is called a Black Origin (from memory, but could be wrong), and just looks terrifying :eek: It's over 100 miles away, so could be some time before anyone passes by with it.

One final question - hope you don't mind - the TLM170 has what looks like a slot with a knurled tightening wheel, for a pop filter. Couldn't find mention of the filter piece anywhere. Any substitutes that fits in there? Looks nicer/simpler than a great big clamp on piece.

If the Neumann doesn't work out, I'll use it for Skype.

Thanks again

Bubba
 
"If the Neumann doesn't work out, I'll use it for Skype."

Garghhh! What a waste! I bet you could sell the mic and easily get enough for a cracking headset for Skype or one of the better USB mics.

Dave.
 
Well, what a surprise. I really didn't want to believe that this microphone could improve upon anything. But it does! Firstly, with the RE20, there is a continuous faint hiss in the background, even with Cloudlifter. As you increase the volume, so the hiss increases. Others may have another name for the noise, hiss, buzz etc. I really notice it when I stop recording and realize what true silence is. I must have gotten so used to it that it ceased to register. The TLM 170 is by comparison silent.

Secondly - and I'm going to have a job describing this - my voice sounds as if nothing has been taken away - see, I told you it was difficult to describe. At least I know what I mean :) It sounds as if there is more of me in the sound. More detail, more subtlety.

Thirdly - and this goes against what I'd expected - it's more forgiving on my voice. Yes, the RE20 is supposed to be more tolerant of poor acoustics/surroundings, yet I've found this mic to be even better in that respect. I tend not to pop too much, and my 'S' sounds are just sharper. I didn't expect that. Remember: I have two professional grade sound baffles - one very close in front and one very close behind - each as tall as a person. Messing around with the polar patterns is interesting. My favourite is not the pattern suggested by everyone.

The TLM 170 has had everything from sonnets to plain dialogue thrown at it. I knew on the very first playback that it was better for my voice. I'm just surprised, that's all. No music or singing will ever go into the mic. Spoken word only.

Now for the ridiculousness: I find the TLM 170 less intimidating than the massive RE20, held in that enormous suspension mount. I'm less aware of it being there. The RE20 on the other hand causes a total eclipse, and no life can exist in its shadow. Still prefer green to black though.

So, ecc83, not such a waste after all. Seems like it'll be the RE20 that gets used for Skype :)

Edit: Just to say: I don't like equipment, didn't want the hassle of upgrading and couldn't give a fig about the historical reputation of certain manufacturers. I don't feel as if I've been influenced by adverts (haven't seen any), or reviews (haven't read any). But it does indeed sound better. On the plus side, I get to use one less cable as the Cloudlifter is taken out of the equation... but Skype just became a whole lot more complicated :)

The bit I never mentioned: many years ago, I recorded my first ever spoken word into this actual microphone. Someone wanted a bit of preamble to a singer's life story, and asked if I'd oblige. One minute I was making a cup of tea, the next I was in a room full of equipment. They had to tell me how to sit, how close to get to it etc. Took ages and many, many false starts. Had never spoken into a mic before, ever! So, nice to be reunited with it all these years later.
 
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"So, ecc83, not such a waste after all." Er? Either you did not understand me or I don't understand that?
I meant using the TL for Skype would be a waste (not SILLY mind, busking in the rain with a Strad is ok but won't earn you a penny more than a Boosey&Hawkes budget fiddle).

Your findings of the good performance of the microphone come as little surprise to me. Capacitor mics are more "hi fi" than dynamics. Wherever there is a need for accuracy or precision you will find them. Ribbons perhaps come second. Dynamics are great alrounders of course and are generally more rugged than caps and WAY tougher than a Coles 4038!

Mind you, if you did not have your baffles I am sure the Achilles heel of the cap mic, especially the LDC, would I thnk obtrude? That being the room.

I am a bit surprised that RE 20 and the cloudlifter still give noticeable noise. I have read a couple of reviews of the cloudlifter and it seemed to be the solution to low output mics. Maybe yours is a bit out of spec?

Still think even the EV is far too good for Skyping!

Just looked up the spec for the RE 20 sensitivity is 1.5mV/Pa. That's about 3dB hotter than a 57/58 and maybe 4-5dB hotter than an SM7b and I am sure I have heard of people using those mics with a cloudlifter and getting really low noise results.

Of course, mics are subject to tolerances and if it is an old one it might be down a bit on output? Add a c'lifter not quite up to snuff and you could get a bit of noise.

Dave.
 
Hi Dave, just kidding about Skype :-)

But yes, the first thing I noticed was the lack of that continuous noise. It's very faint, but always present. During the pauses in dialogue I can hear it. Never goes away, and just thought it was quite normal. Any kind of spoken word hides it completely.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, tips

Bubba
 
Hi Dave, just kidding about Skype :-)

But yes, the first thing I noticed was the lack of that continuous noise. It's very faint, but always present. During the pauses in dialogue I can hear it. Never goes away, and just thought it was quite normal. Any kind of spoken word hides it completely.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, tips

Bubba

Yes Bubba I THOUGHT you were but forums are funny places and I have been misunderstood before* so I just wanted to clear that up.

*the fact that I do tend to drone on with a load of old bllx sometimes nothwithstanding.

Dave.
 
I can assure you, every word here has been so helpful.

So, I'll be over for a cup of tea tomorrow evening, about 5:00pm. I've got a list of 5000 audio questions to ask.

And... Earl Grey or I'm not coming!

Bubba
 
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