Another bloody preamp thread

_brian_ said:
I have Yamaha actives and I use beyerdynamic headphones as well as listening in the car/consumer systems to get a feel for what others will hear.

I know you’d all find this boring but I’d rather set up the microphone to an amp once. Ready for recording every time - the best place it can be and then I never have to worry about it. I feel it should be the arrangement that excites not the production - but this is probably where I’m going wrong.
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Oh, I'm not sure I'd 100% commit to that idea!
I'd rather be a great writer/performer/arranger and competent at recording than the other way around.


To be honest, the *problem* with home recording is that we have so many tools and options to focus on that quite often we forget what's important.
Writing/Arrangement/Performance.

Everything after that should be an attempt to preserve or enhance. With acoustically recorded music, those are the three main things, for me.
If that's where your passion lies, don't knock it! ;)

That said, Having some basic understanding of gear choice and microphone placement is important.
You don't necessarily need to do 100 comparison takes and work the mic to the mm, but you should know there's a huge difference between pointing at an acoustic sound hole and pointing at 12th fret, for example.


As far as gear...You're not into the minutia. That's cool.
You should have no trouble finding 'fun' threads on here or on gearslutz about 'desert island vocal chains' and that sort of thing.
I have no idea if your current interface/preamps are quality or not. Hopefully someone can comment there,
but there are plenty of reasonably priced combinations that you just can't go wrong with.

Like, if someone gave me an RME interface with a handful of onboard preamps, an sm7b, and a pair of c414s, for example, and said that's it...That's all you get...
I'd be happy enough. :)

Ok, it's different if you're recording a full kit, band, or ensemble, but for any vocal or solo acoustic performance, I struggle to see myself complaining about that ^^.
 
_brian_ said:
I have Yamaha actives and I use beyerdynamic headphones as well as listening in the car/consumer systems to get a feel for what others will hear.

I know you’d all find this boring but I’d rather set up the microphone to an amp once. Ready for recording every time - the best place it can be and then I never have to worry about it. I feel it should be the arrangement that excites not the production - but this is probably where I’m going wrong.
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I don't read anything wrong in that - in fact having a setup where you can just sit down and quickly record is ideal if it's typically just you. It allows you to compare your performance without wondering if it was the mic change or whatever that is the difference, and also lets you make small changes between takes to fine-tune the setup. It also allows you to come back and make another take for a comp or punch in something that really has to be fixed and not have a massive time sink, or perhaps mean you simply have to re-track everything because getting the same sound is impossible.

Your "monitoring system" is about like a lot of what we have at our disposal. (And exactly what I have, though I augment with a couple more sets of headphones/earbuds, and sometimes even the TV "soundbar".)

I'd say do that short bit of some cover song in a style similar to what you are going for, and get some feedback on your mixing chops to settle down (and start it on a thread in mixing techniques or even MP3 subforum).

The idea that anyone can say "buy A+B+C" and you'll be good to go is, I'm tempted to say, delusional, but that's wrong. There are a lot of pieces (i.e., not just one, ideal) you can put together and record well enough on. It's all the other stuff that's been mentioned here that really matter, and until you're sure of yourself, objective feedback from others is the only way to get there IMO. You'll keep spinning your wheels otherwise.
 
Put together a "test" session. Import a commercial track by an artist you are trying to get the sound similar to. Set up and take pics of the setup then record as specific piece of music/vocal/ and label both test 1. Move microphone/change setup call it test 2 take another pic and play/sing the exact same thing. Then you can listen back and "score" the different takes. Then using your pictures, set up that way and forget about it. It may seem like a waste of time since you are not actually making music but in the long run it will be time well spent as you will have less to do prior to hitting the record button. Keep your test session and pics and you will have a database of different sonics available to you-something some paid engineers do is keep notes like that. All pro engineers fully document recording sessions(well the assistants do the real work usually) but I learned from experience, if you have to re-record something and it's a month later you might not remember how you got a particular sound. I have an A&H Qu32 and the preamps in yours are supposed to be better than mine. I record directly through them for most everything, though I have a home built pre that I sometimes use for vocals
 
Some excellent advice in this thread, should have come here sooner rather than confusing myself and tearing my hair out wondering why the hell im not getting where I want to be.

I’ve never documented settings, which is silly because I’ve only a few times felt - that guitar sounds great etc and it disappears into a mix down and becomes a mystery as to how I did it.

I’ve never believed in music theory, I think music should naturally come to you. But maybe I’ve wrongly tried this same approach with more technical subjects like this and although it may become natural later on I guess it’s after a lot of experience.

I guess I am still at the beginner stage in all this and have to go back to basics and follow the rules.
 
I'd bet you already know a hell of a lot of music theory, but just don't realise that's why you compose music that sounds nice. The rules are not rigid things to follow blindly, they just allow you to predict what will work, what might not and they explain how music sort of holds together. They appear difficult and restrictive - but they just use strange vocabulary, are pretty historic in nature and difficult to relate to - until you realise that they often put things in place that help. Some people write their music in the key of C Major if they play a synth or keyboard - so plenty of C, F and G chords. The music theorists talk about chords I-IV-V instead because that's what C, F and G are, and the guitar composers might have A,D and E as their three chords - which are also I-IV-V. Numbers instead of letters. Look up fascinating stuff like the circle of fifths. If you start at C on the keyboard and go up 5 steps to F, you now are in F Major, with one Flat (the Bb). Go up another 5 steps to the Bb - this key has two flats, Bb and Eb - keep going and you go through all the flat keys, then suddenly move toi the sharp keys, which reduce graduall down till yiu get back to C. No sudden wow factor, but the theory lets yopu work out how many flats and sharps different keys have, and how the notes all relate. If you spend any time with bass players they tend to bang on about modes - and they get a bit pompous about all the Greek-style names they can play. I've played bass for 40 years, and can never remember the names of the modes bar a couple. I just hear the right notes in my head. I tend to just play these and not bother about what scale they come from - they just come. It's a bit like finding saomebody who can explain the offside rule in UK football. Everyone shouts offisde all the time, and just know it was - few know the wording of the rule.

Keep on making music. Shove the faders, tweak the knobs, get good at twiddling. I never follow anybody else's prescription for mixing and recording. There is no need to conform unless you have to produce music to exact specifications where level and stereo content and dynamic may be closely prescribed.
 
rob aylestone said:
.... I've played bass for 40 years, and can never remember the names of the modes bar a couple. ....
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momentary diversion:
I don't play lounge music any longer.

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

I never did play lounge music, but I warm up with my modes every time I pick up the guitar :).
 
I have an AT2035. Great mic considering the low cost. I have run it through my Warm Audio TB12 and gotten pretty good results - particularly with acoustic guitar and vocals. The TB12 also works *great* as a bass DI. The TB12 is marketed as a "color" adding preamp - but it's tweakable and can be set for a more transparent sound. Please keep in mind that I am quite inexperienced.
 
PorterhouseMusic said:
I have an AT2035. Great mic considering the low cost. I have run it through my Warm Audio TB12 and gotten pretty good results - particularly with acoustic guitar and vocals. The TB12 also works *great* as a bass DI. The TB12 is marketed as a "color" adding preamp - but it's tweakable and can be set for a more transparent sound. Please keep in mind that I am quite inexperienced.
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Earlier I was thinking about getting an RE-20 mic along with the TB12. Was also thinking about the DAV BG1, but there is limited info about it online.
 
Ive bought quite a few mics because I thought I wanted one. The EV is a strange one, and for a few months I brought it out of mothballs and gave it a real shot. I left it in the studio on a stand, and knowing I'm lazy, I figured I'd then use it for all sorts, simply because to get up, and hunt for the most appropriate one from my mental list would be outweighed by my laziness. It was.

It worked for every vocal or voice over I put it on - but without any sort of 'character'. A bit like a 57. You know you have better, but the 57 is a known and predictable mic you can depend on to not let you down. There is a plus side to the EV. When you stick it in front of a less disciplined or experienced performer, the little changes in their mouth to mic distance don't matter. The sound stays the same - you just get a bit more room 'air'. It worked for a series of complex BVs, where from day to day, they had to sound exactly the same. Did this really well. Trouble is, eventually I needed something different and put the EV away, and it's been away since then again. It just doesn't seem to add much of it's own, like 57s - and maybe this is the key. The posh mics, the posh preamps all do a bit more than just work transparently, and that is the little bit extra you like and want to repeat?
 
rob aylestone said:
Ive bought quite a few mics because I thought I wanted one. The EV is a strange one, and for a few months I brought it out of mothballs and gave it a real shot. I left it in the studio on a stand, and knowing I'm lazy, I figured I'd then use it for all sorts, simply because to get up, and hunt for the most appropriate one from my mental list would be outweighed by my laziness. It was.

It worked for every vocal or voice over I put it on - but without any sort of 'character'. A bit like a 57. You know you have better, but the 57 is a known and predictable mic you can depend on to not let you down. There is a plus side to the EV. When you stick it in front of a less disciplined or experienced performer, the little changes in their mouth to mic distance don't matter. The sound stays the same - you just get a bit more room 'air'. It worked for a series of complex BVs, where from day to day, they had to sound exactly the same. Did this really well. Trouble is, eventually I needed something different and put the EV away, and it's been away since then again. It just doesn't seem to add much of it's own, like 57s - and maybe this is the key. The posh mics, the posh preamps all do a bit more than just work transparently, and that is the little bit extra you like and want to repeat?
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That’s why I thought using the TB12 with the RE20 would be a good idea. The TB12 looks like it’s able to do clean and coloured well and has a lot of tonal options on there like changing transformers, caps etc.

But in the end I’m guessing, sadly I know no one that can hear my voice - which I’m not overly keen on and give me advice as to what mic etc would compliment it.

Oh to have enough money to buy a load of shit, trial it all and sell whatever doesn’t work - or keep it!

There you go, can’t even think like a posh person in that scenario, I’m still wanting to dump things on eBay!!
 
So many other factors to consider before worrying about preamps. Room!!!! Get your room/s lined out. Spend money on treatment, DIY or store bought either works. Do research on how to treat a room. You cannot record and mix correctly if you cannot get a good recording in your room, or hear your mix correctly. You have good enough tools to produce quality music. You just need to learn how, and why. #1 is writing good music, #2 is good performance of music. Spend your time here, learning these crafts. If you can write and record great stuff, mixing becomes a lot easier. We get sold on “ buy this it’ll make it better” when we should be focusing on’ “ learn this it’ll make you better”.
 
Toastedgoat said:
So many other factors to consider before worrying about preamps. Room!!!! Get your room/s lined out. Spend money on treatment, DIY or store bought either works. Do research on how to treat a room. You cannot record and mix correctly if you cannot get a good recording in your room, or hear your mix correctly. You have good enough tools to produce quality music. You just need to learn how, and why. #1 is writing good music, #2 is good performance of music. Spend your time here, learning these crafts. If you can write and record great stuff, mixing becomes a lot easier. We get sold on “ buy this it’ll make it better” when we should be focusing on’ “ learn this it’ll make you better”.
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I should just copy this to a text file because it can never be said enough.
 
As I’ve already said I’ve treated my room with Rockwool panels, I am also satisfied I am able to write very good songs after around 20 years experience doing it. I know I can get the tracks down and I can use interesting production techniques.

The instrument performance requires a little more care, I will admit that. But have been of the opinion in the past - why work hard getting a perfect take when you make an arse of capturing the performance either due to inexperience or lack of good gear. I also have to multitrack and play everything myself which is not a breeze.

The drums aren’t a huge problem because i use a Roland kit to trigger a good quality VST. The only problem I have with the drums is that I tend to quantize them to make everything perfect ready for the next track overlay.
 
I haven't read through the whole thread, but one trick I have read on this board, track with DI and then run that track back out through the amp. This way you have a good take, and then you can fool around with mic placement, room sound etc. Some may think this is cheating. I don't think getting a good sound is cheating.

But at least if you get the take right, then you have the luxury of playing with the sound and focusing on one thing at a time. Plus you get to actually hear the sound and micing in context to the mix.

Not sure if this was ever said, but it is something to consider.
 
I like that idea actually, never thought about doing that.

I was going to make a thread a while back asking about if anyone had created an analogue digital hybrid DAW. EG record to the DAW then output each channel to a mixing desk so you have finger control over the mix. I don’t know if it’s worth it or not. I can also see you can purchase controllers for a DAW so it keeps the audio in the digital domain. But I read a lot of people who purchase those things are not impressed and end up selling/ not using it.
 
One of the guys who use to come here pretty much tracked that way. For a controller, they have some apps for Apple products, Android and remote connection for both for controlling a PC. I have used TouchDAW on a tablet and it works well, but I would look to see if there are others. I think I paid like $5, so most are not that expensive and will get you most of what you need to hit record, rewind, etc. while you are fooling with Mic positioning.

Anyway, it is a thought and room/mic placement is really important when recording an amp. Plus you could make you a small amp room and not break the bank. We just have to be creative.
 
_brian_ said:
I think what you said about re-recording is massive. I like most other people I guess hear the partial arrangement in their head like a slice of the cake - all instruments moods and feelings hit me. Then I go straight in and record it. By manner of something becoming physical instead of just mental it never assumes what you hear in your head - but often it develops into something better. I then get excited listening to that slice of the cake, I add to it and eventually I get hearing fatigue and have to stop. When I get back to it, it’s unfinished and perhaps poorly performed but the excitement and mood is still there. I then try and re-record and finish the song and it loses that spark - it becomes sanitised and less interesting.
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Yeah preamps and gear wont fix this. I suffer from that too, the fun is fast and then the remake perfection loses it all, but then the original "mood groove" often sounds like ass too and then its on to another melody and song.

one of my goals was always the 60 minute McCartney Come and Get It, where he supposedly did this 1st version in 60 minutes, and it sounds great. Then he gave the song to Badfinger to do.

the point and goal is to have a setup that you can run in and do a 1st version and it sounds good.

Ive read a lot of Beatle books and get the impression Lennon was a 1st Take kind who got bored fast and McCartney had the ability to re-do a song 1000 times to get it right...but maybe it lost some of the vibe?

the HR problem doing it yourself is there is no one in the control room setting the tones and making your first fast version right.

I think Glyn Johns wrote in his book the last time he recorded Lennon , he got yelled at because the first run through vocal was to set up the console and Lennon was pissed the first take wasnt recorded and he was done, so he had to sing it again, and was pissed off.

As you wrote eariler there is some benefit to having your guitar amp setup locked in and a mic in the same place and youre ready to go.
That makes sense.

The vocal chain, the Bass chain, the drums...keys....all ready to roll....

then maybe you could capture the 1st Version well.??

I dont know after 20+yrs Ive never figured it out.
 
have you considered getting some 500 series units? they are good, worth it and you get a LOT of choice including adding hardware EQs and compressors as well as mic pres.
 
I've started to go down the preamp/outboard gear in a big way - I'll be honest, in some ways it's throwing large amounts of money at the problem in pursuit of marginal improvements... But, IMO, those marginal improvements DO matter (as primarily a guitarist, I look at it as the difference between a $1000 guitar and a $4000 guitar - that $4000 guitar is only 5% better, maybe, than the $1000 one... but, that last 5% is worth that kind of money if you're crazy enough about this stuff), and there is a lot to be said for the argument that as you begin to stack tracks up on top of each other, those slight differences compound.

There were two pieces of advice I was given, one I followed and one I didn't, and I think both are good advice:

1) Start with a 500-series chassis (I didn't, I wanted something rackmounted, and ended up buying a rackmount 500 series chassis anyway)
2) The two "primary" colors of preamp, sort of like Fender vs Gibson in the guitar world, are Neve and API. Prioritize getting one of each flavor.

At the moment, I have a BAE 1073 2-channel pre (a really good modern take on a Neve circuit) in a 1U 19" rackmount format, and a rackmount 500-series chassis with a pair of CAPI V28s. I'll start by saying that I wouldn't look at either of these as "transparent" preamps, especially as you begin to push them - they both can be very clean, but they respond differently to sounds and transients and impart their own color and feel to a sound, and as such I've absolutely found that I have different preferences for different instruments. The Neve-style BAE pres are thick, forward, midrangey, and punchy, and especially as the preamp gain comes up a bit I really like them on electric guitars and basses - they have a very "rock" sound to them. The CAPIs, meanwhile, are deeper, seem to have a faster, less compressed transient response as they begin to saturate a little, and sound very "modern" and hi-fi. I would probably like them on guitar for metal rhythm, but I REALLY like them on acoustic guitars. I hear they're great on snares too (I use Superior 3 so I haven't had to try) which would make sense, especially if you were after a bright, crisp transient.

But, I guess I'd concur with the guy above me in that if your mic cabinet right now is a 2035 and a pair of SM57s, assuming your current interface's preamps are decent, I'd consider looking at a better condenser. I'm REALLY impressed with the sE Electronics sE4400a's I picked up a year or two back - a modern take on an older brass capsule C414 design that's supposed to sound more like a C414 than a modern C414 does.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
I've started to go down the preamp/outboard gear in a big way - I'll be honest, in some ways it's throwing large amounts of money at the problem in pursuit of marginal improvements... But, IMO, those marginal improvements DO matter (as primarily a guitarist, I look at it as the difference between a $1000 guitar and a $4000 guitar - that $4000 guitar is only 5% better, maybe, than the $1000 one... but, that last 5% is worth that kind of money if you're crazy enough about this stuff), and there is a lot to be said for the argument that as you begin to stack tracks up on top of each other, those slight differences compound.

There were two pieces of advice I was given, one I followed and one I didn't, and I think both are good advice:

1) Start with a 500-series chassis (I didn't, I wanted something rackmounted, and ended up buying a rackmount 500 series chassis anyway)
2) The two "primary" colors of preamp, sort of like Fender vs Gibson in the guitar world, are Neve and API. Prioritize getting one of each flavor.

At the moment, I have a BAE 1073 2-channel pre (a really good modern take on a Neve circuit) in a 1U 19" rackmount format, and a rackmount 500-series chassis with a pair of CAPI V28s. I'll start by saying that I wouldn't look at either of these as "transparent" preamps, especially as you begin to push them - they both can be very clean, but they respond differently to sounds and transients and impart their own color and feel to a sound, and as such I've absolutely found that I have different preferences for different instruments. The Neve-style BAE pres are thick, forward, midrangey, and punchy, and especially as the preamp gain comes up a bit I really like them on electric guitars and basses - they have a very "rock" sound to them. The CAPIs, meanwhile, are deeper, seem to have a faster, less compressed transient response as they begin to saturate a little, and sound very "modern" and hi-fi. I would probably like them on guitar for metal rhythm, but I REALLY like them on acoustic guitars. I hear they're great on snares too (I use Superior 3 so I haven't had to try) which would make sense, especially if you were after a bright, crisp transient.

But, I guess I'd concur with the guy above me in that if your mic cabinet right now is a 2035 and a pair of SM57s, assuming your current interface's preamps are decent, I'd consider looking at a better condenser. I'm REALLY impressed with the sE Electronics sE4400a's I picked up a year or two back - a modern take on an older brass capsule C414 design that's supposed to sound more like a C414 than a modern C414 does.
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^This if you’re going down the preamp rabbit hole There’s a truckload of great preamps out now. 500 series let’s you use different flavors in one box, plus you can get EQs and Comps to put in there also. If you just want a transparent preamp Focusrite ISO- one works well.

I have and use 500 series preamps but, my behringer UMC204 HD get just as much use if not more. I do my mobile recordings with it , I can put it, the laptop, cables, and mics all in one bag.
 
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