What extra kit should I get to make half-decent classical piano recordings?

seb1982

New member
Hi!

I stumbled across this forum today and just had to join - what a fantastic resource!

I'm a relatively decent classical pianist, and have tried many times over the years to make recordings for friends and family, but always given up before achieving anything I was happy with. I recently bought a digital PCM recorder (Olympus LS-14), and have been AMAZED at how far technology has come on in the last few years - these recordings don't sound *too* bad!

So, my interest has been re-ignited, and I'd love to give it another shot, but with half-decent kit. I'm just at a bit of a loss of what to get now everything's gone digital!

I already own a Behringer UB1832 FX-PRO analogue mixing desk, and a pair of Behringer B2-Pro condenser mics.

One of the major problems I had before, using these, was the whole recording level being too low, as otherwise it would distort at the piano's maximum volume. The Olympus' built-in "music limiter" setting really helps with this. Any ideas on how to combat it with "proper recording" would be appreciated. Would a light touch with a compressor work, do you think? Or should I just record digitally it at that lower level, and then rectify it in software?

Speaking of which, I'm just using the Audacity freeware at the moment. Any advice on not-too-expensive, suitable software would be most welcome.

I guess my queries boil down to:

Should I get a better quality A/D converter / recorder? It can't be ideal going from a mixing desk to a 3.5mm jack into the Olympus PCM recorder, can it?

Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a whole new digital mixing desk?

Would a compressor be useful for classical piano? I note that some digital mixing desks have simplified compressors included on the channels - I have no idea how good these are...

What DAW software would you recommend for simple classical piano use?

Any other ideas as to useful kit that exists nowadays would also be hugely appreciated.

I realise I'm asking a really open question here, so thanks for bearing with me! I'm happy to spend a few hundred dollars on anything that will really help.

Thanks ever so much :o)
 
Huge question.

I wouldn't start from where you are, just personally, but I'd do a bit of reading in the sticky threads up above about mixers vs. interfaces... and also try to understand the effect that your room will have upon a hugely dynamic instrument such as piano played in a classical style before considering puchasing anything.

In a nutshell. Buy an interface, get Reaper and give up on Audacity, understand why you wouldn't compress any signal on the way in and what a proper recording level actually is and how to get it and maybe your mics will do for a start. I'd find another use for your Olympus device.

I was at a classical piano recital last night, a Schubert sonata amongst other things, in a proper performance hall and I remember thinking that it would be a nightmare to record in your average home recording space because of the huge variation in volume and the sound bouncing off the walls. But then I've never recorded a piano at all.

I'm in a hurry at the moment, so others can go into more detail. Good luck, and welcome...
 
One of the major problems I had before, using these, was the whole recording level being too low, as otherwise it would distort at the piano's maximum volume.
There's *almost* no such thing as recording too low --

Okay, that's not really true. But one thing for sure is to NOT confuse NORMAL levels with "levels that people are used to hearing these days (which are ANYTHING but "normal" in any - normal sense).

If you can find a decent preamp/interface in whatever your price range is (there are so many out there in such a broad range -- tons of crap for less than a few hundred bucks up to amazing for several thousand and everywhere in between). Simple is best. No compressors, no EQ's (don't stack "cheap" circuitry on top of cheaper circuitry), just a simple preamp/converter/interface-to-your-computer. Find out where the mics sound good and then smack the hell out of the keyboard (as loud as you could possibly be while playing) and set the preamp levels to give you something around -12dBFS (which is still too hot IMO/E, but people get paranoid for some weird reason about "recording too low" or something goofy like that) and play. Worry about playback volume later (much later - the last possible step in the process - have headroom, hold headroom, love and cherish headroom for as long as you possibly can).

Some stuff here if you're bored: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles
 
Hi Seb and welcome.

Big job! This task is slightly similar to the oft asked question, "how can I make convincing recordings of my 100W, 2x12 guitar rig?....In a garage"!

The answer in both cases is I am afraid "You can't". Not really. But don't be too despondent! At least you have some quite useful microphones. Behringer kit tends to get slated in forums but some of it is quite good and those mics get a fairly good rep. Most useful of all they have switchable pickup patterns and the Figure 8 pattern might be just the job for "Co-Incident Stereo".

To do this you really need to suspend one mic, upside down above the other and angle them at about 90dgrs. Yes, Fig 8s will pickup room sound but in stereo it does not seem to matter quite so much, dunno why, perhaps it is because it is the "natural" sound of the room? We don't listen to real life in mono!

Dynamic range: Yeah, big innit! Actually there are very few quality speaker systems that can properly reproduce all the ffffs of a grand piano, certainly nothing under about $3000 a pair IMHO. But once again there is good news.

A good AI and those mics should be "electronically" capable of recording the full dynamic range of the piano. You will need to record at 24bits (44.1kHz) and keep your absolute peaks below about -8dBFS on Reaper's meters. Yes, the quiet passages will go very low and the "written" signal seem insignificant. It isn't, it should be well above the system noise floor (but you WILL need a very quiet room).

So you now have the piano captured in all its dynamic glory. Now, like every balance engineer since tape, you have to decide what gets compressed, limited and how because like the Rock God, the piano simply will not "fit" into a domestic setting without some adjustment.

Just my 2penn'o'th.

Dave.
 
That's very interesting - thank you! I was definitely one of those who would try and get it as close to clipping as possible. It does seem rather silly now, thinking about it...! :facepalm: :D

So it's best to record cleanly with some headroom and then ... erm ... normalize it with a max of -1dB or something similar, I suppose :confused:
 
Dave, that's great - thanks for taking the time to type all that!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by upside down, and then the 90 degrees business with the Fig 8 setting, I'm afraid... I've always left them directional before, so that's very interesting.

AI - is that the interface?

So, so sorry for these stupid questions! And, yes, I do hate being *that guy*! It's like when people come on my piano forums - "How can I play a Beethoven concerto? I've never had any lessons!" ... Er, you can't, mate! :D
 
Q. How should I mount a pair of AKG C414s?

Second pikky down shows the upside down idea and that magazine and its website is a goldmine of information.

AI? Yes, Audio Interface, sorry this game is heavily laced with jargon and acronyms. One that floored me for the longest time was "DAW".
Stands for Digital Audio Workstation but it can mean just the recording software, Audacity, Reaper etc, or the whole computer, mic, AI monitor setup!

Normalize? No! (John S is probably spluttering off for drink right now!) . You need to tastefully and skilfully reduce the dynamic range. This is the province of the pure professional like John but I would guess you can get some ideas by ripping CDs into the computer and then looking at the levels? Probably need to use some pretty old recordings, has the loudness war encroached on the "classics" yet?

If you can, try to listen to some BBC Radio3 piano. Live in the studio (or recordings thereof) is best but old Proms will be useful I suspect.

Dave.
 
The mastering stage is where you deal with final volume levels... not the recording stage and not the mixing stage.

If you're wanting something just decent for your own edificiation and that of friends and family, then DIY "mastering" in your DAW is quite possible. Real commercial release? Get a professional to do it.

Don't worry about mastering for now, you'll have other things to worry about before then...
 
Recording piano is my speciality.

You really need a good pair of omni-directional small-diaphragm condenser microphones.

My favourites are: Gefell M221, Sennheiser MKH 20 and MKH 8020 and the Neumann KM 131-A/-D.

If money is tight, then a pair of Røde NT5 with the optional omni heads, or the NT55 (which comes with both cardioid and omni heads) would be a good compromise.

A good interface into the laptop would probably be your best option - a Prism Lyra-2 would be the best option, A RME BabyFace or Focusrite Forte a good second option - or a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 a good inexpensive option.

Reaper is an excellent and inexpensive editing software and the $60 fee also covers commercial use if you earn less than $20,000pa on audio.

I hope this helps.
 
If the budget does not quite stretch to John Willett's excellent suggestions, may I suggest that you also check the small diaphragm omni mics from Naiant

Naiant makes some very nice microphones, and Jon (Mr Naiant) is most helpful and informative.

To mount the mics, you'd do well to have a stereo bar, and inexpensive ones are made by Sabra Som.

Paul
 
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