Recording classical guitar at home using small diaphragm condenser microphones.

T

Tony_DS

New member
Hi. I hope someone with technical knowledge may be able to help me. I am a complete newcomer to home recording, and my equipment choices will be limited by budget. I want to record classical guitar at home, and probably some electric guitar. I am looking at getting two small diaphragm condenser budget microphones for a stereo xy set-up. I am considering, amongst others, the t.bone SC 140 stereoset bundle, the Behringer C-2 Studio condenser microphones (Pack of 2) and the Samson CO2 condenser matched pair. Although I have read some bad reports about Behringer, some people have suggested that the C-2 microphones are adequate for home recording. I have the following information on the aforementioned microphones.

1.The t.bone SC 140 Stereoset Bundle from Thomann :
Field sensitivity [mV/ Pa]: 16.2
Equivalent noise level [dB(A)]: 9.2
SPL [dB SPL @ 1% THD]: 140/ 150.
Electrical impedance [Ohm @ 1 kHz]: 220

2. Behringer C-2 Studio Condenser Microphones (Pack of 2)
Sensitivity of 8.9 mV/Pa
Equivalent noise level (IEC 651) 19dBA
Maximum SPL (≤ 1% THD @ 1 KHz) 140dB (0 dB), 150dB (-10dB)
Nominal impedance 75Ω.
Load impedance > 1kΩ

3.Samson C02 Condenser Microphone Matched Pair
Sensitivity of 10mv/Pa
Equivalent noise level of 22 dB (A weighted IEC/ DIN 651)
Maximum SPL of 134 dB (THD≤ 0.5% 1000 Hz)
Rated Impedance 200Ω

I also want to purchase an audio interface that will be compatible with my chosen microphones. My research has led me to believe that an audio interface's preamp should not add too much noise to the signal and needs to have enough headroom to prevent overloading by the microphone. I found a good article online that explains this: Selecting Mic Preamps. The M-Audio M-Track 11 looks like it would suit my needs and is within my budget, but sadly the specifications for this interface are lacking some of the technical details that the experts suggest are needed to determine the compatibility with a given microphone. There are no figures for preamp maximum input level or preamp input impedance, and I also wanted to confirm whether the interface is usb 2.0. The preamp EIN is stated as -126 dBu (max gain, 150 Ω source, unweighted), which, if I calculated correctly, appears not degrade the performance of any of the three microphones listed.

I am also considering the PreSonus AudioBox iTwo which seems to have the right preamp specifications for the microphones ( Input Impedance (Balanced) 1,200Ω and Max Input Level (Unity Gain, 1 kHz @ 0.5% THD+N) +10 dBu) , although the equivalent input noise is not given.

Behringer also have a budget interface the U-PHORIA UMC202HD 24 Bit/192 kHz. This has MIDAS preamps, which I have read are highly regarded. It has a preamp input impedance of 3KΩ but a maximum input level of only -4dBu ( although it does have a pad switch, which I am surmising will be equivalent to boosting the input level ). Additionally the UMC202HD specifications do not state the preamp EIN.

As I mentioned at the start of this rather long-winded post, I am completely new to home recording and until a few weeks ago knew absolutely nothing about microphones, audio interfaces, preamps etc. I am therefore finding some of the choices and technical details rather bewildering. So, in summary, I am hoping someone with a little patience and far greater knowledge than I possess will be able to explain whether my assumptions have been correct and if I should be concerned about the lack of details given in the manufacturers data sheets, or whether I am simply expecting too much from budget equipment in the first place. Perhaps the old adage “You get what you pay for” is correct. I am trying to avoid buying equipment that ruins my classical guitar recordings because of high noise levels. I also realise that there are many other factors that will affect the quality of recording such as room acoustics, computer fan noise, microphone placement, instrument quality and not least my own ability ( or lack of ). I am using Windows 10 Home Edition 64 bit with 4GB RAM and an Intel i5 2.80GHz processor. If anybody is willing or able to answer this post I will be eternally grateful. Tony.
 
Hey there. If I were you I would much rather have a stereo matched pair of SDCs. I would also be wary of any mic described as "adequate for home recording." Classical guitar is an instrument that is not very loud, and the nuances are very important. Having a good mic in this application is very important. Choose carefully.

I do not have experience with any of the mics or interfaces you are describing. I do have a decent amount of experience recording classical guitar. I use a single Neumann KM-184 at the 12th fret about a foot away into an RNP into a digi 002. I wish I had a matched pair. I have tried putting my AT4040 (LDC) near the bridge but that didn't work out.

Like you said, the room is very important. If I'm you I am recording in the largest room in the house and turning off the AC/heater and trying to get as far away from the computer fan as possible.

I think you are on the right track.
 
These days 'matched pairs' are not so critical, due to manufacturing techniques. You're much more likely to have differences in sound due to the room, and when starting out recording, doing a lot of experimentation with mic placement, too.
Buying or making some bass trap panels which you can use as portable gobos in front of you when recording will assist a lot in removing the 'room' part of the equation.

Try looking for the Steinberg UR22 or the Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 or 2i4 as possible interfaces.
 
What was said above......typed while I was taking my time replying.

I can't advise you on interfaces except to say I would forget anything from Behringer and if possible, get something that has individually switched phantom power on each channel. As for mic choices much depends on your budget and especially on your guitar, as a classical has a different set of complexities to a steel string, you want to capture the more mellow attack of picking along with the range of tones across the strings.

I would not limit the choice to just SD condensers, if you can stretch the $$, a large diaphragm condenser along with a small diaphragm mic would give you more long term flexibility. Placing the LD above the guitar (at around or slightly above shoulder level) pointing down towards your picking hand and the SD in front aimed between your picking hand and the 12th fret would be my preference but be prepared to experiment with mic placement.

In the budget range of things I still believe you can't go past mics from either Studio Projects or MXL, they have been doing it longer than most and both companies offer good support should it be needed.

To offer more advice I'd at least need to know your anticipated budget, etc., and how you expect to record electric guitar.

:cool:
 
Thanks for all the helpful replies. I am trying to limit my budget to under £200, which I know is not much. I think I will avoid Behringer products based on what has been said here and elsewhere. Neumann is definitely out of my price range, but I will look into Studio Projects and MXL mics to see if there is anything within my budget, although this may limit me to one microphone. I know the Steinberg UR22 and Focusrite Scarlet 2i2 that have been mentioned sell for about £99 in the UK and so are something to consider. I play a Cordoba C7 solid spruce top classical guitar, and I also have a Yamaha electric guitar, which I rarely play these days, although I thought it might be fun to plug this into an audio interface for recording.
 
I use two mics when I record acoustic, but that being said, one good mic has a lot of up side to it. First possible improved quality (vs budget mic), second phasing, especially if you have to do any type of editing. You get the room right, distance right, etc. no reason you can get a good quality sound recording with one mic.

I think also for the classical, as was stated before, you really want to capture the nuances of the guitar and the player. Much more important than just recording a guitar. For steel string acoustic, it is less subtle than the classical. If I had to throw a dart at something, I think one good mic verses two would be a better route to go, plus it leaves you more options when recording other acoustical instruments.
 
The Rode M5s get a very good rep' in Sound on Sound Feb 2014. As others have said, a low noise system is vital and at 19dB the M5s are probably the best you are going to get at this price level? (£169 in 2914)

Where in the world are you Tony? I ask because there was a BBC TV programme just last week about the life and work of John Williams and a Radio 3 review of the just released boxed set of everything he has ever done. Both proggs should still be available on BBC iPlayer (or I could send you a burn if you are in Euroe?)

Unfortunately much of the telly stuff is old B&W and mono but you should get some ideas. I would certainly go for stereo on classical guitar (my son in France paid about E 3000 for one a couple of months ago) There will be no "phase" problems with CO-I XY recording, basically its raison-d'etre!

Now, don't desert US Tone, but do ask over at SoS.com. There is almost certainly "workshop" article about it.

Forgot! If in UK PM me I can lend you a setup to try.

Dave.
 
Phase issues? I've been using two ears for 50 years without phase issues, and recording a guitar with one microphone was fine when we had one speaker to listen to, but now we have this amazing thing called stereo. A guitar, especially these types of guitars produce sound from so many places, that to restrict yourself to one position is a compromise, and for me, a bad one! All of these budget mics are not bad at all. Of course, more money means perhaps smoothness, truthfulness or colour action to help or hinder. These budget mics will be quite happy in X/Y or even in the other more exotic standard formats, or indeed split into what are effectively spot mics that can favour positions on the guitar that show it off. The usual neck and sound hole positions that you then blend and eq before balancing it for pseudo stereo. When I do these jobs I never know what the guitar, the room and the player will contribute, and for me, mic choice is secondary to positioning. I have a little recording kit for recording in people's homes, and use a lexicon omega interface, which works well on these kinds of thing, pianos and guitars. Out of that mic list, oddly I do have two of those Thomann mics, and they're quite pleasant, and have been reliable. I actually use them as drum overheads, but I'd use them on guitars of my choice was a bit limited with no qualms.

In most cases moving the mics has more impact than the subtle differences between them.

My advice is buy the ones you like the look of from that list, pick an interface and have a listen. If you don't like it send it back, and waste the postage. Thomann are very good for this.

I have a pair of not matched AKG 414s. I can, if I try really hard, see the differences, but they are tiny and I have never had a recording suffer. With kit in this price range, my experience is that you will buy it and instantly like or hate it. With expensive kit, it's a much longer before you start to hear things you don't like!

The first time you hear something the player did that makes you want to push stop, when the player carries on unaware, you know your mics are good enough for the job. I did a job once with a name player, who had no lacquer on his guitar, because he didn't like the impact it had in his guitar. I could not hear this kind of subtlety, but could. I thought I was in trouble for the recording, but he loved it, even though I'd left the 414s at home and used two unbranded mics from China. It was total luck they flattered the guitar.
 
Thanks for advice. I managed to catch John Williams and was trying to watch how he plays tremolos because I am trying to learn this technique. I realised that I am moving my fingers far too much. Back to the drawing board!
 
Tony_DS said:
Thanks for advice. I managed to catch John Williams and was trying to watch how he plays tremolos because I am trying to learn this technique. I realised that I am moving my fingers far too much. Back to the drawing board!
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"Don't get technical with me R2"! Heh! My son plays classical guitar* but at best I could do a bit of bass! Still don't know where you are Tony? If in UK I could loan you a pair (not matched but ok) of AKG P150s.

I am with Rob, stereo is good (phase issues? What phase issues? Do not exists for Co-I recording) The acoustic guitar is a big thing and sound exits from all over the body. One problem with XY stereo though is back to that pesky room! Do you have enough of it?

Putting an XY pair a few feet away from you in a typical living room will result in an enormous guitar appearing to stretch from speaker to speaker!

If you are still looking at mics I am very impressed with the SoS review of the SE Electronics sE8 SDCs. Low self noise for SDCs (I do NOT believe that noise spec for the T bones!)

*I have a Bach Partita by him but recorded on a gash USB capacitor. He is an impecunious musician in France.

Dave.
 
Over 2 years on I think that the OP would have done a fair bit of recording by now. Seeing the thread has come up again, personally I don't use Small Diaphragm Condensers for classical guitar, I use Large Diaphragm condensers. I also mic at a longer distance than a steel string.

Also have a look at using the mid - side micing for something different. I tend to only use this if the recording is going to be a single acoustic. If I am recording acoustic for a band mix, I only use a single mic.

Alan.
 
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