Questions regarding song credits

[Big Thier]

Hi,

I'm writing the credits for my songs and I have a few questions.

Situation #1: I wrote a vocal melody/lyrics over a song that already exists. Then I brought it to someone who made a completely new instrumental that still fitted with my melody. So he wrote the music, and I wrote the lyrics and vocal melody. Therefore, we're both songwriters. My question here is, who is the producer, or are we both producers? The way I see it, I'm the producer, because I overlook everything, try to achieve my "vision", reach out specifically to the people I think will be the best suited for the song, etc. Basically, while I don't compose the music per say, I will decide the structure, the vibe, the effects, the mixing, the mastering… I may compose a little keyboard or drum part here or there, but what I mostly do is the lyrics/vocal melody. You can say I'm the mastermind behind how the song will sound, even though I don't compose the instrumental.

Situation #2: Let's say I bought a hip-hop beat from someone. I put the beatmaker as a songwriter. But there is a guitar sample in the beat. Should the original guitar player be credited as a songwriter? Would he also be considered as an engineer on my song since he recorded the guitar himself before it got sampled for my song? And would the beatmaker be considered a producer?

Situation #3: Let's say I worked with several people on a song. The drummer, bassist, guitarist and keyboardist each recorded their part themselves. Therefore, in the engineering credits, should I list all these people? What if someone recorded a small keyboard part for the song - still an engineer for the song?

Looking forward to your insight.

 

[Chili]

My two cents...

Sit #1: If you can perform your lyrics and melody to an audience, such as singing acapella, then your wrote the song. You are the only songwriter. For copyright purposes, the only thing copyrightable is the words and melody. The rest is not and you do not need to share songwriting credits.

I write songs, mostly with vocal and acoustic guitar. It's my song, I can stop there, register the copyright, publish it, go perform it and it's all mine. Then I take it to my band. Guitar player wants to add a fill, drummer has a certain beat, keyboard player... whatevers... It's still my song no matter what the others bring to it. It was a done deal before I brought it to them. Same in your case. There is one small distinction that I consider... if the guitar player were to bring a signature riff or hook to the song that might make it stand out, then I would consider giving him songwriting credit.

As for producer, there is a big difference between producer and songwriter. Might be the same person, might not, but it's a different role. If you wrote a song, then orchestrated the arrangement, vibe, feel, which instruments to use, etc, then you're the producer and songwriter. If someone else helps you to choose the arrangement, instruments, and stuff, then he is co-producer. If her were to do it all himself, you are the sognwriter, he is the producer.

Sit #2: You bought a beat, you should not include the beat maker as a songwriter. Re: Sit #1, you wrote the words and melody, you are the songwriter. You would be sharing potential royalties. You should have had some agreement saying royalty-free when you purchased the beat from the beat maker.

As for the guitarist, I would suggest it's your choice if you want to give anyone else engineering credits. It's just an acknowledgement, nothing more. Same with Sit #3.

 

[rob aylestone]

When you write music and it goes to Spotify or iTunes and the others, one of the questions is that samples are a problem. If they're in the music you have problems with the determination of the royalties. You can do it, but not by the usual automated systems. You can publish a cover version, but using samples is a licensing nightmare - even if they are royalty free, because the money trail needs proof. If you also register your works with the big licensing agents in your territory, they want all sorts of info. PPL, here in the UK want engineers name, and the names of any performers on the track, including the instruments they play, and with PRS, our songwriting agency, they want percentages for the contributors. Producer wise - is this not usually the record company, or record company's representative or a stand alone producer? All needs itemising and detailing.

I'm very new to streaming services and the various on-line sources, and in a couple of weeks am quite amazed where my stuff is being streamed to. Last quarter PPL and PRS had no plays, so no payment so I decided to put some stuff on Spotify, Apple Music, google play and iTunes and it will be interesting to see if this generates any income. I've also submitted the isrc code for the content to PRS/PPL so maybe the streams will kick start something there. I have no idea what the distribution payments work like - so a bit of an experiment.

 

[grimtraveller]

I wrote a vocal melody/lyrics over a song that already exists. Then I brought it to someone who made a completely new instrumental that still fitted with my melody. So he wrote the music, and I wrote the lyrics and vocal melody. Therefore, we're both songwriters......Basically, while I don't compose the music per se, I will decide the structure, the vibe, the effects, the mixing, the mastering… I may compose a little keyboard or drum part here or there, but what I mostly do is the lyrics/vocal melody. You can say I'm the mastermind behind how the song will sound, even though I don't compose the instrumental.

This can be dependent on the genre but if you are not coming up with the music, I'd argue with the notion that you were the mastermind as such. In a lot of hip hop/rap and Christian pop/rock where in both cases the message overpowers any musical considerations, maybe. It really depends on each song.

If you can perform your lyrics and melody to an audience, such as singing acapella, then you wrote the song. You are the only songwriter. For copyright purposes, the only thing copyrightable is the words and melody. The rest is not and you do not need to share songwriting credits.

This for me is an example of where the law is an ass. There are simply zillions of songs that would be totally different entities if all they consisted of were the words and melody. I know I often mention this but in the 90s and early noughties when CDs started having demos {alternate takes too, but mainly demos} as bonus tracks, it gave a unique insight as to how certain songs evolved from the writer's first laying down the song. Some didn't really change. Some were a little more fleshed out. Some altered altogether and maybe credits should have been shared. For example, Dave Davies came up with the descending guitar line that is central to the Kinks "Sunny Afternoon" and Bill Wyman, the riff of "Jumping Jack Flash" by the Stones. Both have grizzled and whinged for years for receiving no credit. When one sings "Sunny afternoon" that guitar part is as central to the song as the melody as is the verse riff to JJF.
Once, back in 1991, I came home from work and found that my friend had left me 2 answering machine messages. They were both songs he'd written and as he only played drums he'd sung them and as I played guitar, he asked me if I'd put some music to them. I worked on both songs that evening and it took a long time. But I decided on the chords. I decided whether or not to invoke minor chords. I gave it its feel. Someone else doing the music probably wouldn't have used the chords I did. That song would only exist as an acapella thingy and I've always taken part credit for it.....because I worked out the music. That was actually how Mikey and I used to write. He'd sing it, I'd find music for it. There were a few songs that I didn't take credit for, mainly because all I did was follow his melody on the bass or guitar and replicate it. And there was one that, although I'd written the music for the song and we used to play it regularly, when it was actually recorded, it was done as an acapella and all I added in that case was a harmony ~ which, in my mind, doesn't qualify one as a co~composer. But most of the stuff he started are as much my songs as his because I did the music. And very consciously so.
By the same token, I gave him co~composer credit on lots of songs too. We jammed a lot and I'd always tape the jams, out of which many great ideas came. I'd be the one to develop them and turn them into songs with melodies, structures and lyrics. But the way we jammed and our sympatico at the time was central to what made those bits worth pursuing. And it felt right to do. Sometimes, a song might be 16 minutes and his contribution was to have been involved in a jam that elicited only 25 seconds worth. Most of the time he wouldn't even remember the piece existed. But he was still part of its creation.

 

[grimtraveller]

PPL, here in the UK want engineers name, and the names of any performers on the track, including the instruments they play

For many years when I was doing delivery work, I used to deliver to PPL. They were great, you could rely on them to be there early in the morning. They used to have this huge board up in their reception with the most played songs that year that they handled. It was always "Whiter shade of pale."

I write songs, mostly with vocal and acoustic guitar. It's my song, I can stop there, register the copyright, publish it, go perform it and it's all mine. Then I take it to my band. Guitar player wants to add a fill, drummer has a certain beat, keyboard player... whatevers... It's still my song no matter what the others bring to it. It was a done deal before I brought it to them

This is where the waters can get really murky. Most of the time in the scenario you've given, you're right. You have a song, you've worked out how it goes, the chords, where it all travels and it exists as its own entity. The band adding fills, patterns, riffs and suchlike are part of the arrangement, part of the important process of putting clothes on your song. But you could equally do it just the way you've written it, just guitar and voice.
But what if some of the contributions of the band alter the song in ways you didn't have in mind and it becomes not just different from the way you wrote it, but really different ? Brian Robertson tells a story of when he and Brian Downey were in Thin Lizzy, about the song "Don't believe a word." Phil Lynott had brought in the song as a lovey dovey slow ballad and no matter how the band tried it, it wasn't happening Robertson thought it was shit and Lynott stormed off in a huff for a few days. In his absence, the two reworked it, speeding it up, Downey transforming it by putting in its distinctive shuffle, Robertson adding the heavy rock riff and in effect rescuing the piece and Lynott liked it. But when the album came out, neither Robertson nor Downey were on the credits ! That was a bone of contention until Lynott died. Also, one of the reasons the original Mahavishnu Orchestra broke up was because Jan Hammer and Jerry Goodman in particular felt that their improvisations added more than just a bit of flavour to the compositions of John McLaughlin but they never got credited for the parts of the songs they added to. I can see it both ways and it depends very much on the song, but sometimes it's not so cut and dried. There's a reason why a number of bands just slapped on a band credit ~ they recognized that who contributed what and what makes the song the song isn't so easy to pin down.

 

[rob aylestone]

I've got a few tracks that I've been asked to sell a few times but while I did the arrangements, played all the music, and did some of the vocals, all the layered backing vocals - the key feature people,want it for were sung by a long time collaborator who sadly I no longer communicate with or will ever be able to. We're both on the ppl and Prs database for the work, but neither of us will ever release it, which is a great shame, we both like it, but neither want it out there.