Pop filters

[RAMI]

OK...so then let's expand the subject.

What about those wrap-around reflection filters, with the perforated metal backs and foam fronts.....anyone using them, and do they really have a noticable, beneficial effect for you?
Which brand/model...pros/cons.....

I've actually always wondered about those. I know people have said "I use one and it's awesome!!!!" But that doesn't mean shite.

 

[Bobbsy]

OK...so then let's expand the subject.

What about those wrap-around reflection filters, with the perforated metal backs and foam fronts.....anyone using them, and do they really have a noticable, beneficial effect for you?
Which brand/model...pros/cons.....

I have the original sE Reflexion Filter (now called the Reflexion Filter Pro since they released their cheaper home studio models). I find it excellent--properly set up it frankly sounds darn near as good as a professionally treated studio. However, the "properly set up" in that sentence is the key phrase. You really have to follow the sE instructions to the letter and it's a game where millimetres make a difference. Also, you need a good, heavy duty stand--the beast is pretty heavy. My use is mainly for the spoken word--I've not found the need for it very often for singing (though I have used it from time to time).

I've also tried the Project Studio Baby Reflexion Filter, although I don't own one. It was darn good though not quite in the same league as its big brother. Talking to another user, we came up with the phrase "80% as good for 50% of the price".

Besides the need for a good mic stand, the only other down side of either of these is the difficulty of finding a place to put music, scripts, etc. (which is important for voice recording). I notice that sE is selling some kind of clamp-on music stand now but I've not seen it or tried it.

 

[RAMI]

I have the original sE Reflexion Filter (now called the Reflexion Filter Pro since they released their cheaper home studio models). I find it excellent--properly set up it frankly sounds darn near as good as a professionally treated studio. However, the "properly set up" in that sentence is the key phrase. You really have to follow the sE instructions to the letter and it's a game where millimetres make a difference. Also, you need a good, heavy duty stand--the beast is pretty heavy. My use is mainly for the spoken word--I've not found the need for it very often for singing (though I have used it from time to time).

I've also tried the Project Studio Baby Reflexion Filter, although I don't own one. It was darn good though not quite in the same league as its big brother. Talking to another user, we came up with the phrase "80% as good for 50% of the price".

Besides the need for a good mic stand, the only other down side of either of these is the difficulty of finding a place to put music, scripts, etc. (which is important for voice recording). I notice that sE is selling some kind of clamp-on music stand now but I've not seen it or tried it.

Bobbsy, do you put them behind the singer or behind the mic?

 

[miroslav]

You really have to follow the sE instructions to the letter and it's a game where millimetres make a difference.

Elaborate......

I mean, if moving the filter a few millimeters is going to make dramatic differences..... meh.

I actually don't like any of those half-circle wrap-around models...I don't want to give up that much of the sight-line, and it may not fit comfortably in some situations because of its size....plus, if millimeters make a real differences, that makes it all the more a concern

I was looking at this particular model: PostAudio Production Tools for Recording | ARF Filters for Commercial and Private Studios | The ARF-12
It's smaller, so as you can see from the pics, has more possible applications, and according to their specs, has more acoustic layers internally than previous models.
I can get one of the ARF-12 filters for $100, new....so I was curious if these kinds of filters have any significant value in actual use.
They also have the wrap-around, and their "flagship" model that is hinged in the middle, so you can change the size/position of the "wings". PostAudio Production Tools for Recording | ARF Filters for Commercial and Private Studios

 

[Bobbsy]

Bobbsy, do you put them behind the singer or behind the mic?

They share the mic stand with the microphone and go behind (and slightly around) the mic.

 

[miroslav]

They share the mic stand with the microphone...

Hmmmmmmm.....


That is the other thing about many reflection filters that I don't quite agree with.
Sure, it certianly makes it easier...one stand, filter+mic....but I would probably want the RF on its own stand and the mic on its stand....that way it would be easy to move the filter as needed without distrubing the mic, and I think it would minimize the filter-to-mic transmissions, not to mention, having both items on one stand seems a bit risky, unless you drop some heavy weight on the stand's base to keep the whole thing from going over.

 

[Bobbsy]

Elaborate......

I mean, if moving the filter a few millimeters is going to make dramatic differences..... meh.

Well, it's actually the mic you move by millimeters, not the filter itself. As per the instruction manual, your goal is to get the diaphragm of the mic in line with the front edges of the filter. This part is actually pretty quick and easy because the mic is mounted on a metal strip with a slot down the centre that's tightened down with a screw in knob when the mic in in the right spot.

What can take longer is getting the whole rig balanced properly on the mic stand. Since you have two things that can move (filter and mic) it's a bit of a chicken and egg game. With a good mic stand you don't have to be perfect--but as near balanced as you can get, the better.

The instructions actually say that moving the mic slightly into to filter results in a darker, warmer sound (but too much and it sounds "boxy" like the "put foam inside a cardboard box" solution that keeps being posted. Moving the mic even slightly outside in line with the front edge of the filter starts to add a bit of "room" to the sound. I've found this useful at times.

I actually don't like any of those half-circle wrap-around models...I don't want to give up that much of the sight-line, and it may not fit comfortably in some situations because of its size....plus, if millimeters make a real differences, that makes it all the more a concern

The eyeline thing is a genuine concern, which is one of the reasons my main use has been voice over recording things (from a script) rather than very much singing--though if you find a vocalist happy with singing into a blank wall, it can sound good. Perhaps I overplayed the difficulty of the "millimeters" though. Once you have the filter balanced on a stand, getting the mic positioned quickly is very quick--at least if you can see the diaphragm through the grill or at least if the assumption that the diaphragm is in the centre of the mic body is accurate.

I was looking at this particular model: PostAudio Production Tools for Recording | ARF Filters for Commercial and Private Studios | The ARF-12
It's smaller, so as you can see from the pics, has more possible applications, and according to their specs, has more acoustic layers internally than previous models.
I can get one of the ARF-12 filters for $100, new....so I was curious if these kinds of filters have any significant value in actual use.
They also have the wrap-around, and their "flagship" model that is hinged in the middle, so you can change the size/position of the "wings". PostAudio Production Tools for Recording | ARF Filters for Commercial and Private Studios

Looks very interesting. I like the size and can see some applications--I'll have to see if anyone down my way is selling them and willing to let me "try before I buy". I wonder if the way it works or the effect is different than the sE though--I notice they should the mic way out in front of the filter which, to me, is a bit counter intuitive.

 

[CoolCat]

However, the "properly set up" in that sentence is the key phrase. You really have to follow the sE instructions to the letter and it's a game where millimetres make a difference.

I dont have live drums, and was watching a guy make tiny adjustments to a live kick drum mic and it frkn floored me how huge a difference a tiny mic position made in the kick drum coming through the studio monitors... but the tiny positioning move is believable, if its like that kick drum mic...millimeter's and total different sound. wild..

 

[miroslav]

Looks very interesting. I like the size and can see some applications--I'll have to see if anyone down my way is selling them and willing to let me "try before I buy". I wonder if the way it works or the effect is different than the sE though--I notice they should the mic way out in front of the filter which, to me, is a bit counter intuitive.

I'm leaning toward the ARF-12 mainly because it's not as wrap-around.
I'm not looking to minimize the room, it would be more for just filtering out the back side from sounds/reflections, as I often use a dual-di tube mic for vocals, and will set the pattern somewhere between cardioid (12:00) and full figure-8 (4:00) on the power supply. I usually go for 2:00 and sometimes for 1:00 on that mic...so the backside IS active too.
I'm thinking this smaller RF would be a nice "block" for the back, but still not be so overwhelming in size and blocking out the room too much or the sight-lines.

And yeah....mic-to-source can be a millimeters game....I was more interested in the mic-to-filter adjustments on the sE, and how critical they were.

Anyway.....I think for $100...I might pick up the Post Audio ARF-12 and see what I get with it....plus, it looks like a nice application also on guitar cabs, which I don't think the larger, wrap-around filters would be as flexible for close-mic setups.

 

[mjbphotos]

Wouldn't a couple of home-made bass traps do essentially the same as these 'wrap-around' (or not) reflection filters? Or do it better?

 

[miroslav]

Well yeah....and if you check out Ethan's Real Traps site, they make something along those lines...

RealTraps - Portable Vocal Booth

...but I find that singing into a "wall" 12 inches in front of your face rather uninspiring, and somewhat wierd, not to mention, you can't see anyone/anything else in the room if you are tracking with others. When I am working alone and doing the singing, I also have to see/watch the meters on the gear in the studio while singing...so sight-lines are very important to me.

That's why I don't like any of the larger reflection filters, and am leaning more toward the smaller model, the Post Audio ARF-12.
Of course, if you need more serious reflection filtering, than you might have to accept the trade-offs and use the larger ones.
I mean....you could at some point just go stand in your closet and get the same effect.

 

[Bobbsy]

I can guarantee that my sE filter sounds a hell of a lot better than my closet!

The sE is useless for hanging clothes though.

 

[miroslav]

Maybe it's time for you to do the laundry....

 

[CoolCat]

Wouldn't a couple of home-made bass traps do essentially the same as these 'wrap-around' (or not) reflection filters? Or do it better?

with a solid back of plywood, some 703.. probably would work fine.

seems the application and preference is the key. size, distance and noise issue.

I suppose during a quiet spot of a guitar part/track, noises could bleed in.

the op was talking about a plosive P filter issue, and a rumble issue and then expanding the pop filter into reflection filtering which could be the "rumble" issue.

the op Darren, never came back to elaborate on the rumble issue or what it was. The worst rumble mic issue I had was the condensor LD was picking up the frkn attic fan of the ac, through the ceiling vent "rumble" hum....took awhile to figure that out. Some mics are just too frkn sensitive for a low level HR room, amatuerish non treated bedroom of drywall.

 

[CSP]

This is not a joke.

Some years ago, I was told by a very experienced professional sound engineer, that the best pop filter known, was to use (I am not joking) a non lubricated condom stretched over the mic.

I thought he was high as a kite on something, but out of interest and because of his standing, I gave it a try. To my amazement, it actually worked and worked extremely well. There was absolutely no air noise but the sound got through without modification or coloring. I have used the technique a number of times --- especially for very loud/shouting type vocalists who are prone to popping a mic. The only problem I have found is that it is VERY difficult to find a condom that will stretch enough (without splitting) to fit over most of the large diaphragm mics.

You also get some strange looks if you take a mic into a shop and ask the assistant if they have any condoms large enough to fit over the sample mic.

If you try the technique, make sure the condom is not lubricated on the inside as it will make a mess of the mic and some of the lubricant could get into the workings of the mic.

Again, I promise this is not a joke.

David

 

[DarrenVocal]

This is not a joke.

Some years ago, I was told by a very experienced professional sound engineer, that the best pop filter known, was to use (I am not joking) a non lubricated condom stretched over the mic.

I thought he was high as a kite on something, but out of interest and because of his standing, I gave it a try. To my amazement, it actually worked and worked extremely well. There was absolutely no air noise but the sound got through without modification or coloring. I have used the technique a number of times --- especially for very loud/shouting type vocalists who are prone to popping a mic. The only problem I have found is that it is VERY difficult to find a condom that will stretch enough (without splitting) to fit over most of the large diaphragm mics.

You also get some strange looks if you take a mic into a shop and ask the assistant if they have any condoms large enough to fit over the sample mic.

If you try the technique, make sure the condom is not lubricated on the inside as it will make a mess of the mic and some of the lubricant could get into the workings of the mic.

Again, I promise this is not a joke.

David

Now that's what we call protection!

 

[Bobbsy]

Condoms have had a long and illustrious career in sound recording.

Way back when a lavalier microphone was a large cylinder that hung on a string around the neck, we used to try to hide them under clothing--but that resulted in tons of noise as the shirt rubbed on the mic. The solution was to put the mic inside an unlubricated condom which would reduce the clothing noise enough to be acceptable. At the last place I worked in Canada, it used to be the job of the most junior sound operator to go to the local pharmacy to buy 50 or so condoms each week. Our goal was always to get the attractive young shop assistant (not the grumpy old one), as for 50 unlubricated condoms then, as we paid, say something like "Thanks a lot. These should see me through until next week". Never failed to get a blush.

Even these days, in theatre, if you are using hairline mics and have an actor who sweats enough to damage the mic, you cover the mic with with just the end of an unlubricated condom over the mic and secured to the cable with a bit of tape or an elastic band.

And, out on location if I was short a proper wind screen, a condom over the shotgun mic worked pretty well.

The one thing to say is that, in all these cases there WAS a definite change to the sound--but nothing a bit of EQ couldn't adjust for. I assume the same would be true using it as a pop screen.

 

[grimtraveller]

I can't believe we're talking about pop frickin' filters for 4 pages.

Some years ago, I was told by a very experienced professional sound engineer, that the best pop filter known, was to use (I am not joking) a non lubricated condom stretched over the mic.

Men on the internet can not only talk about pop filters for pages galore, they can segue with aplomb to talking about implements that assisst in frickin' !
What connection !
Freud would be proud. Or he'd say "I've created a monster !".

 

[miroslav]

Condoms have had a long and illustrious career in sound recording.

..............

The one thing to say is that, in all these cases there WAS a definite change to the sound--but nothing a bit of EQ couldn't adjust for. I assume the same would be true using it as a pop screen.

I've accidentally forgotten plastic baggies over mics when tracking guitars.
The baggies were for dust protection....and then in the heat of getting things going with the session the following day, I never noticed that I didn't remove the baggies.
There was also a gobo/tent-like setup over the amp, cab and mic...so it's not like I was just dumb-blind not to see it...
...but the funny thing is, I'm listening to the playback and the guitar sound was good.....then I happen to take a closer look at the whole rig and... DUH! ...realize the damn baggie was still over the mic.

I've had that happen at least a couple of times, and if I decided to keep the tracks....they would have held their own, with maybe just a slightly different EQ setting. Heck, I'm sometimes trying to tame the occasional harshness in the upper-end of some guitar tracks...so maybe the baggies were helping!

 

[CoolCat]

Condoms have had a long and illustrious career in sound recording.

Condoms have had a long and illustrious career in the whole musical industry.

CSP mentioned "non-lubrictaed" condoms, which makes sense to prevent greasy oil mic syndrome, although it might be a corrosion inhibitor.

I wonder what the wife would think if she walked in on her recording husband and he was putting condoms on the microphone...and then the explanation of its for P-popping and Rumble issues.

I guess its no worse than toilet paper over the NS10 tweeters. A body orifice device being used by an Engineer, probably due to it being readily available.

Speaking of toilet paper, has anyone used that as a P-filter instead of womens panty hose on a coat hangar?