In need of some Monitor advice please...

iggystooge

New member
Hello,

I'm about to attempt recording music again, this may well be the last time I try. I've only ever added some guitar and keyboard parts to an already existing track for my friend which sounded OK to us.

I've never recorded anything from scratch that I've finished and I don't actually have any Monitors. I've listened to everything through Harman/Kardon Soundsticks II PC speakers previously.

How important are Monitors and how much do I need to spend to guarantee a good end result?

My other gear is Ableton Live Suite 10 (Win10), Saffire Pro24, Midi Keyboard, AKG Perception 120 Mic, AKG K240 MKII Headphones.

Any help you can offer will be appreciated.

Thank you.
 
The role of monitors (which are any speakers that you use to listen to playbacks of your recordings) is to let your ears know exactly what you've recorded. Good monitors are therefore ones that reproduce sound very accurately, and do no add their own characteristics to the sound.

So, for example, if your speakers have a strong bass response, when you mix listening to the speakers, you may not push the bass up very loud, because it sounds like it is already loud enough. Then you discover that when you lay the song somewhere else, it is lacking the bass end. Inaccurate monitors can fool you into thinking something sounds good when it's not, and that means a lot of guesswork to get it sounding right.

How much you need to spend depends pretty much on your budget. You buy what you can afford, and sometimes you can get by with cheaper monitors. You get by by playing material you now to be well recorded through them and learning how the speakers influence the sound, then adjusting your mixing techniques accordingly.
 
Studio monitors is a highly emotional, passionate, full of voodoo subject.

All manufacturers are full of shit. (To some dergree)
There are so many that claim 'flat respnse'. I call bullshit!
If they were true to their word, they would ALL sound the same. But they don't Some emphasize mids more, some highs, some bottom end.

If they ALL were truly flat and all sounded the same, we'd have zero need for the myriad of companies marketing 'studio monitors'

Ideally to hear EXACTLY what you recorded you'd need a truly flat monitor that didn't hype anything, nor take anything away.

Then the only variables would be your room. (Which has a huge effect on what you're hearing)

Where does this leave one? Well in some ways you're screwed. You may buy a monitor on the recomendations of others who swear by them and get good results. You put them in your room and because of how your room interacts with the sound waves, you find all your mixes still sound bass heavy, etc.


So the only thing you can really do is to purchase the best monitors you can afford and then LEARN them. Play lots of music through them and discover and learn your monitors characteristics. This takes some time.

Secondly, treat your room and get it under control. (Some say do this first)

Thirdly, check your mixes on many different systems, just for a reality check.

But learning your monitors is paramount. Just like any tool, if you don't know how to use them you won't get good results. Imagine having a 16 oz framing hammer but you're choking up on it. You're gonna have some difficulty hammering in nails.
The tool has to be used right, and has to be learned.

Good luck in your choices, and i hope i didn't confuse you more. :D
 
the role of monitors (which are any speakers that you use to listen to playbacks of your recordings) is to let your ears know exactly what you've recorded. Good monitors are therefore ones that reproduce sound very accurately, and do no add their own characteristics to the sound.

So, for example, if your speakers have a strong bass response, when you mix listening to the speakers, you may not push the bass up very loud, because it sounds like it is already loud enough. Then you discover that when you lay the song somewhere else, it is lacking the bass end. Inaccurate monitors can fool you into thinking something sounds good when it's not, and that means a lot of guesswork to get it sounding right.

How much you need to spend depends pretty much on your budget. You buy what you can afford, and sometimes you can get by with cheaper monitors. You get by by playing material you now to be well recorded through them and learning how the speakers influence the sound, then adjusting your mixing techniques accordingly.

word...
 
Everyone says there are "no rules" in recording - but there are 2.

1. You will only ever hear as accurately and consistently as your monitoring chain allows you to hear.

You could have a zillion dollars in gear, the best mics, the best preamps, the best outboard, the best plugs on the best DAW ever created and it all means crap unless you're hearing it relatively accurately and consistently. Like trying to do color correction on an uncalibrated video monitor.

2. Your monitoring chain will only ever be as accurate and consistent as the room allows it to be.

The greatest, most accurate, most consistent loudspeakers ever created are worth a bowl of warm sinus fluid in an inaccurate and inconsistent space. Like attempting color correction on photographs on a perfectly calibrated video monitor while wearing tinted lenses and the tint is changing depending on the intensity of certain colors. While being color blind. On a color blind horse. Which is on fire.

Long story short - Your monitoring chain (including the room) is the very foundation that your entire rig is built upon. Nothing else is anywhere near as important.
 
You heard it from The Men! Although I think Mr RFR is being a teensy bit cynical? There are myriad design choices and drive units (and at least 3 main bass loading techniques all of which have their champions) Compromises have to made for anything portable!

However if you go through the back issues of Sound on Sound and seek monitor reviews, especially by Phil Ward and Hugh Robjohns you will see that yes, there can be a "House Sound" but the best monitors are converging on similarity and accuracy. P&H tend to review the very top end stuff and that will give you a feel for the sort of money you need to look at IF you want something pretty much beyond reproach.

The magazine has also had some excellent articles about room treatment over its many years.

Dave.
 
[MENTION=89697]ecc83[/MENTION]

I may come across cynical, but those are harsh realities. Once you get up in the upper ranges of spkrs, yes, they are 'more' accurate.........at a cost. But for the consumer market, most can't afford accuracy.
Ya git what ya git, and ya don't throw a fit. :D
 
[MENTION=89697]ecc83[/MENTION]

I may come across cynical, but those are harsh realities. Once you get up in the upper ranges of spkrs, yes, they are 'more' accurate.........at a cost. But for the consumer market, most can't afford accuracy.
Ya git what ya git, and ya don't throw a fit. :D

Ok, point taken. I did think you were colouring (NPINT!) ALL monitors the same, regardless of price. Yes, the budget market is fraught. I did a lot of reading and finished up with Tannoy 5As but I have no illusions and son was only recording jazz guitar and similar stuff that did not demand huge volumes or window rattling bass.

One day I hope to treat ME! I am seriously looking at the Result6.

Dave.
 
The thing I always smile at is that if you look at a £200,000 outside broadcast truck, you're quite likely to see them mixing audio on a pair of sub £300 speakers. I'm ancient now, and perhaps have become very cynical. If you look at Mr or Mrs Average at home, they now listen on quite dreadful systems as 'normal'. Lightweight plastic computer speakers, sound bars, and mini hifi speakers. If you move up to the hifi brigade, BIG speakers are now firmly out. They may well be physically big, but probably have no more than 8" drivers, and they can get decent bass response from them. Studios mix for these people - and probably more for the Mr and Mrs average than the hifi brigade. For years the studios have had mega loud, huge speakers to mix on, but a pair of small speakers sitting on the desk so they can assess for the average user, what the big speaker mix sounds like. Why would you spend many thousand pounds on the mid field big speakers in the studio, when you are mixing for the small ones? This is why the OB trucks just don't bother. There may well be an extra octave of bass the little ones cannot manage, but the modern displays let you see if it's there or not - you don't really need to hear it. If you have a favourite artiste - that individual or band that you know very well, and have all their material, then you know the sound. When you mix your own masterpieces on the same speakers you know well, your recordings will be judged on how your speakers sound. Does your bass sound like your favourite commercial recording, and if not, can you eq it to make it closer? We used to say do NOT mix on headphones, but with more people now listening to music on headphones rather than speakers maybe now is the time to downplay real monitors? Do you make dance music in any of it's varieties - music to be played in nightclubs or venues with piles of subs? If you do, then you really MUST have a bass capable system to mix on, but that's more a specialist product now.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that ANY monitor system can be used if it reflects accurately what you do and what you need. It's stupid to produce dance music on a speaker system that has nothing below 60Hz. If your music is acoustic guitar and voice, then 60Hz isn't really an issue.
 
The thing I always smile at is that if you look at a £200,000 outside broadcast truck, you're quite likely to see them mixing audio on a pair of sub £300 speakers.

Funny, but I believe universally true

My personal experience with that confirmed that trend for me.

I have a friend that used to work at a CBS TV station. They had tons of great 'old' high end gear. (I got a little of it. ;)) Then they 'upgraded' the station.
Most of the stuff was given away to the staff when the TV station was 'upgrading and modernizing'. They weren't even interested in selling. Their attitude was take it away or it goes in the trash. Lots of employees got some expensive passive monitors and other gear. :)

You want to know what they switched to for all monitoring? KRK Rockit 5s. It was a laughing stock for the old timers. But the corperate bean counters deemed the KRKs to be cutting edge technology. :D

But thats the way it is today.
High end for most, is home theater systems with plastic speakers.
A crap product like Beats headphones have sold millions.
Earbuds rule.
Probably a roadtrip in a car with a decent Bose system is the closest to a musical hifi experience one will get.

Its a different world.
:D
 
Funny, but I believe universally true

My personal experience with that confirmed that trend for me.

I have a friend that used to work at a CBS TV station. They had tons of great 'old' high end gear. (I got a little of it. ;)) Then they 'upgraded' the station.
Most of the stuff was given away to the staff when the TV station was 'upgrading and modernizing'. They weren't even interested in selling. Their attitude was take it away or it goes in the trash. Lots of employees got some expensive passive monitors and other gear. :)

You want to know what they switched to for all monitoring? KRK Rockit 5s. It was a laughing stock for the old timers. But the corperate bean counters deemed the KRKs to be cutting edge technology. :D

But thats the way it is today.
High end for most, is home theater systems with plastic speakers.
A crap product like Beats headphones have sold millions.
Earbuds rule.
Probably a roadtrip in a car with a decent Bose system is the closest to a musical hifi experience one will get.

Its a different world.
:D

Beat me to it RFR! The OB van monitor WAS surely the LS35/A? Developed at great expense because back in the 70s there was no small speaker that could be used (small because of "van" and because you need two. We forget the coming of stereo radio!) The Goodmans Maxim was looked at but was severely restricted in most areas, not least of which available output but mainly sample to sample consistency.

But, the 35/As are £1800 a pair and that does SIX vans with Rockets! "Never mind the quality, feel the saving!)

BTW. I am trying to build a single centre speaker of good quality but all my emails and phone messages to mssrs Falcon Acoustics go unanswered!

Dave.
 
[MENTION=89697]ecc83[/MENTION]
Dave you familiar with the Fostex 4 inch full range drivers? I've heard a set in some transmission line tower cabinets. Quite impressive. I always have considered getting a set and building some small box near field spkrs.
 
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The Ls3/5a is a collectors item which commands high prices in the far east - hence the price. Something like the Neumann KH120 is cheaper and better (I've compared them in my studio) but not so different that a mix that sounds good on the 3/5a's would sound bad on the KH120's. Once you reach that level of performance the overall sound balance is similar for any good monitor but the KH120 has smoother and more extended bass.

I found Hugh Robjohns' review of the KH80's interesting - they appear to be even better in many respects (apart from bass) but are even cheaper. I haven't had a chance to hear them yet though.
 
KRK......funny that. When I was looking for some actives to replace my Tannoy Reveals, virtually every "credible" review labelled KRK's as being too "Hi Fi".......I interpreted that as meaning they were "tuned" to sound "good" rather than accurate.

:cool:
 
KRK......funny that. When I was looking for some actives to replace my Tannoy Reveals, virtually every "credible" review labelled KRK's as being too "Hi Fi".......I interpreted that as meaning they were "tuned" to sound "good" rather than accurate.

:cool:
Yeah, they have that smiley face curve.

I had a pair of Rockit 8s and then got some Equator D5s. I set them up on two separate faders. Whenever I'd pull down the D5s and bring up the KRKs the vocals would dissapear somewhat. The bass was sure rocking though.
In short order the KRKs were deemed unreliable and I gave them away. :D

I still own a set of KRK VXTs which are much better, but only use them for tracking. If I blow a driver, no biggie. :)
 
[MENTION=89697]ecc83[/MENTION]
Dave you familiar with the Fostex 4 inch full range drivers? I've heard a set in some transmission line tower cabinets. Quite impressive. I always have considered getting a set and building some small box near field spkrs.

Did not know R but found them from Loudspeaker freaks. Same problem as Falcon and others, only seem to do pairs. No matter I shall send Lfreaks an email and ask. Thanks for that.

Dave.
 
Thanks very much guys for all the information. I'll keep having a look at what's been said. I haven't got a fortune to spend, i might be able to stretch to £300. Why can you buy one monitor on it's own and some as a pair?
 
"Why can you buy one monitor on it's own and some as a pair?"

I guess because they are catering for the 5.1 market? The practice does however raise some technical questions?
It is well known in audio circles that like microphones, stereo requires matched pairs of units. Indeed this was one of the reasons for the high development and sale cost of the LS35/A. The idea that one can buy a single monitors this October then another in Jan '19 when funds permit is laughable. UNLESS the makers have such fabulous quality control that they can guarantee each and every speaker is within a dB or so in response to every other.

Such QC might be found for the loftiest products of Mssrs ATC, PMC or Neumann but few others and even for those mentioned I bet they would still insist on replacement "sets" of drive units?

Dave.
 
. Why can you buy one monitor on it's own and some as a pair?


I think in part it's a marketing ploy. Of course everyone is expecting to get 2 speakers. Pricing them as single speakers deceptively creates the illusion that you're paying less.
I see so many ads where there is NO mention of the price being for just one monitor. Sometimes you never officially find that out until checkout.

Most informed consumers realize that the pricing is 'per speakers'. But imagine how many new recording guys aren't savvy.


And there's also the 5.1 aspect Dave mentioned. :D
 
HOW!! Cynical RRF and HOW true!

Companies pull a similar stunt over here by not including VAT until it is time to wave the plastic. THEN you see the swingeing extra 20%!

Not that I object to paying taxes. I have recently had about £2000 of work done on my property and HAD they given me a "vat free" cash option I would not have taken it. I can then condemn Apple, Google, Starbucks and all the other tightfisted creeps from a high moral plateaux!

Dave.
 
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