LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Nothing clipping. TestA is peak 0. TestB has +4 peaks. No Eq. No FX.
Like the sound from the PA but not in the box
- Thread starter LazerBeakShiek
- Start date
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
Gain staging 101:
If the 6i6 is like the unit I've seen, the ring around the preamp gain control is the clip indicator. It should light up green when there's signal and red when you clip. Are you seeing it turn red? If so, that means you're exceeding 0 dBFS. Reaper is showing you dBFS. It should never be close to turning red.
Back to Line level: +4 dBu, once converted to dBFS is an average level of -18 dBFS. This is the average (not peak) signal level. It's easier to control with a distorted signal, because distorted signals are steady state. They're not overly transient or "peaky". Clean guitar signals have larger peaks. So for clean guitar I'd probably set the level (eg. turn the Focusrite down) so it peaks around -12 dBFS in Reaper. Distorted guitar around the same perceptable volume level, probably something like -16 max. -18 dead nuts is fine. If you're printing the tracks so they peak at 0 and +4 dBFS, it's like running your line levels to something like +18 to +22 dBu. It's like running your SM58 through a toaster. That's probably where that static noise in test A was coming from.
Proper line level is a lot quieter than a commercial CD within the past 25 years or so. The loudness wars have made it prerequisite to bake the f@^# out of everything in the mastering stage. That means the recordings were made and mixed at proper levels and not baked until the last stage.
If you repeat test A with peaks that don't go past -12 in Reaper is the static (clipping) gone?
If the 6i6 is like the unit I've seen, the ring around the preamp gain control is the clip indicator. It should light up green when there's signal and red when you clip. Are you seeing it turn red? If so, that means you're exceeding 0 dBFS. Reaper is showing you dBFS. It should never be close to turning red.
Back to Line level: +4 dBu, once converted to dBFS is an average level of -18 dBFS. This is the average (not peak) signal level. It's easier to control with a distorted signal, because distorted signals are steady state. They're not overly transient or "peaky". Clean guitar signals have larger peaks. So for clean guitar I'd probably set the level (eg. turn the Focusrite down) so it peaks around -12 dBFS in Reaper. Distorted guitar around the same perceptable volume level, probably something like -16 max. -18 dead nuts is fine. If you're printing the tracks so they peak at 0 and +4 dBFS, it's like running your line levels to something like +18 to +22 dBu. It's like running your SM58 through a toaster. That's probably where that static noise in test A was coming from.
Proper line level is a lot quieter than a commercial CD within the past 25 years or so. The loudness wars have made it prerequisite to bake the f@^# out of everything in the mastering stage. That means the recordings were made and mixed at proper levels and not baked until the last stage.
If you repeat test A with peaks that don't go past -12 in Reaper is the static (clipping) gone?
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
If you are using the Focusrite as your interface, then the second screen shot shows the better option for you, i.e. ASIO rather than ASIO4all. Output should be routed back to the Focusrite, from which you can do your monitoring.
Buffer sizes and the like . . . leave all of these at their defaults unless you experience problems.
Buffer sizes and the like . . . leave all of these at their defaults unless you experience problems.
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Snow, there is no key for whether the graduation is dBv or dBu. It is selected at the mains at peak+RMS. Screen shot of the DAW in play at highest part below.
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keith.rogers
Well-known member
I can't tell what's going on in the side in front of the mic - looks like a pile of stuff. Is it just a simple guitar->amp->speaker setup? Is everything turned off that is not being used? All guitar/patch/speaker cables checked/tested or replaced with known good ones to rule that out? Spurious lighting can cause noise, too, though I thought I read something about a Furman in there. Doesn't mean you don't have something leaky plugged in to that.
(Was recording at a wine bar with some lovely LED xmas lights that made something in the performers' mess of acoustic guitar pickup, pedals/preamp buzz like a beehive. Had to to get them to unplug the lights. 2 weeks later, another performer's rig didn't make a peep. Turned off the lights anyway.)
(Was recording at a wine bar with some lovely LED xmas lights that made something in the performers' mess of acoustic guitar pickup, pedals/preamp buzz like a beehive. Had to to get them to unplug the lights. 2 weeks later, another performer's rig didn't make a peep. Turned off the lights anyway.)
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Post 46 has the lights on. To get a picture of the screen wth the meter moving I had to use cel phone. Cause of glare I needed the overhead light off. Just working through 1 problem at a time.
Yes, the Furman power conditioner is at the top of the rack. If you are smart you buy the one with the led voltage display.
Then if people are really smart they use a Variac. Sometimes my outlet goes down to 100-105 at the common wall. The variac can dial it right back to 110-115-117 whatever the product demands on the back plate.
Yes, it is just simply connected SM58 to 6i6 XLR in the front. Sm58 1 ft back from lower right speaker.
Yes, the Furman power conditioner is at the top of the rack. If you are smart you buy the one with the led voltage display.
Then if people are really smart they use a Variac. Sometimes my outlet goes down to 100-105 at the common wall. The variac can dial it right back to 110-115-117 whatever the product demands on the back plate.
Yes, it is just simply connected SM58 to 6i6 XLR in the front. Sm58 1 ft back from lower right speaker.
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LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
rob aylestone
Moderator
I'm interested in the actual sound - was there an audio file I missed. To me over level is a characteristic kind of distortion that gets worse as the over level increasesm while other things (zooms for instance) can give a visual totally flat top waveform and sound quite passable. Static, I understand as minor clicks and pops, crackles, fizzing and hiss of some kinds. Which ones are we talking about?
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Its one thing after another.
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LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
'To find the world’s most sinister examples of mind control, don’t look to science fiction. Instead, go to a tropical country like Brazil, and venture deep into the jungle. Find a leaf that’s hanging almost exactly 25 centimeters above the forest floor, no more and no less. Now look underneath it. If you’re in luck, you might find an ant clinging to the leaf’s central vein, jaws clamped tight for dear life. But this ant’s life is already over. And its body belongs to Ophiocordyceps unilateralis, the zombie-ant fungus.
When the fungus infects a carpenter ant, it grows through the insect’s body, draining it of nutrients and hijacking its mind. Over the course of a week, it compels the ant to leave the safety of its nest and ascend a nearby plant stem. It stops the ant at a height of 25 centimeters—a zone with precisely the right temperature and humidity for the fungus to grow. It forces the ant to permanently lock its mandibles around a leaf. Eventually, it sends a long stalk through the ant’s head, growing into a bulbous capsule full of spores. And because the ant typically climbs a leaf that overhangs its colony’s foraging trails, the fungal spores rain down onto its sisters below, zombifying them in turn.'
I want to be a zombie ant , ya know? Whos with me?
When the fungus infects a carpenter ant, it grows through the insect’s body, draining it of nutrients and hijacking its mind. Over the course of a week, it compels the ant to leave the safety of its nest and ascend a nearby plant stem. It stops the ant at a height of 25 centimeters—a zone with precisely the right temperature and humidity for the fungus to grow. It forces the ant to permanently lock its mandibles around a leaf. Eventually, it sends a long stalk through the ant’s head, growing into a bulbous capsule full of spores. And because the ant typically climbs a leaf that overhangs its colony’s foraging trails, the fungal spores rain down onto its sisters below, zombifying them in turn.'
I want to be a zombie ant , ya know? Whos with me?
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
A cel phone was used to record the same MP-1 preset 2 and voice, twice in this thread a couple pages back. They do not have that static.
My guess is that it is the plate that the power tubes are mounted on. It is loose and vibrating. Or something. It should be clean. Cat hair in the microphone?
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Hey, If my El-34 power tube plate is broken..Does that mean I have a special one? It does not sound like anyone else's.
Nah, it is 20-30 years old . It is probably broken.
Nah, it is 20-30 years old . It is probably broken.
rob aylestone
Moderator
So we're talking about resonance, not an electronics sound, unless the grid in the tube vibrates enough to cause instability? Not really anything to do with record levels at all then?
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Agreed. Would it go away when I turn up the gain to say 2 or 3?
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Could you identify these meter graduations? Which one is dBFS the middle? Snow wants the line at -18dBFS so I can bake it .
There are two thinner meter lines on the sides of the major. Which is it?I did not see the information in the wiki or quickstart guide.
At the amp I will go 2-3 on the gain that way no little rattles should be heard. Test A was only at 0.5 gain on the knob.
There are two thinner meter lines on the sides of the major. Which is it?I did not see the information in the wiki or quickstart guide.
At the amp I will go 2-3 on the gain that way no little rattles should be heard. Test A was only at 0.5 gain on the knob.
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rob aylestone
Moderator
The centre one show the dB level below 0 - the maximum full scale readout. The other two are equivalent scales where old analogue equipment are aligned to and it was possible to exceed 0dB because this figure was matched to a specific output voltage, as in the old .7/1.4 levels.
Your physical noise problem is trickier to identify. It was quite common when tubes were everywhere for many to be screened, and rubber isolated for the very reason we're talking about - if the grid (or grids) between anode and cathode physically move in the electron stream then they do produce noise. In some cases they even acted as microphones and could inject the sound in the vicinity into the audio path, so voices could be heard vaguely in the background or even feedback like microphones and speakers! The solution was often springs and clips to prevent vibration, and sometimes enclosures. On my first week as an audio engineer we were shown valve tapping. Hitting the valves (your tubes) with a screw driver would make a noise, indicating the valve was ageing prematurely. We then swapped it out for a new one that usually was silent. The grids were actually getting more and more weak and eventually they would fall inside the tube body.
Your physical noise problem is trickier to identify. It was quite common when tubes were everywhere for many to be screened, and rubber isolated for the very reason we're talking about - if the grid (or grids) between anode and cathode physically move in the electron stream then they do produce noise. In some cases they even acted as microphones and could inject the sound in the vicinity into the audio path, so voices could be heard vaguely in the background or even feedback like microphones and speakers! The solution was often springs and clips to prevent vibration, and sometimes enclosures. On my first week as an audio engineer we were shown valve tapping. Hitting the valves (your tubes) with a screw driver would make a noise, indicating the valve was ageing prematurely. We then swapped it out for a new one that usually was silent. The grids were actually getting more and more weak and eventually they would fall inside the tube body.
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Snow, will that be good enough? O on that meter? The picture shows an example about +6. To me.
I have no clue the information just runs out. No meter key. No way to get the information to apply the recommended advice for the next experiment...
This is just stupid man. Beyond frustrated at this point.
I have no clue the information just runs out. No meter key. No way to get the information to apply the recommended advice for the next experiment...
This is just stupid man. Beyond frustrated at this point.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
Your master is showing a peak of -6.4dB which is fine. If the channel is the same, then you shouldn't be getting distortion because of an overdriven input. If the channel strip shows a positive number, you need to drop the level by at least that amount.
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
Yeah, the center scale on that fader is dBFS. Once you're in the computer it's not dBu or dBV anymore. dBFS means decibels, full scale. It's how we read digital signals after they're converted. Beyond zero there is nothing so all hell breaks loose and you get harsh digital clipping. (This is why you need to record lower than that.) The number at the top will show you the maximum peak. -6.4 will stay there until it reads a peak that's higher. If you clip (go over zero), the top of the meter turns red.
The scales on the outside are showing you the position of your fader. It's lined up with zero, so that means your master fader is at unity gain. It's the same as using a fader on a mixing console. If the track fader is also at unity and you only have the one track, that's the level you recorded at.
Like I said, for clean guitar I wouldn't want to peak past around -12. As others have said, -6.4 isn't really all that bad and shouldn't cause that static sound. You'd need to be around 0 dBFS for that to happen. If you turned down the preamp gain and the static is still there, it's something else.
+4 dBu = -18 dBFS, roughly. Average levels, not peak. The peaks can go a bit higher.
The scales on the outside are showing you the position of your fader. It's lined up with zero, so that means your master fader is at unity gain. It's the same as using a fader on a mixing console. If the track fader is also at unity and you only have the one track, that's the level you recorded at.
Like I said, for clean guitar I wouldn't want to peak past around -12. As others have said, -6.4 isn't really all that bad and shouldn't cause that static sound. You'd need to be around 0 dBFS for that to happen. If you turned down the preamp gain and the static is still there, it's something else.
+4 dBu = -18 dBFS, roughly. Average levels, not peak. The peaks can go a bit higher.
LazerBeakShiek
Rad Racing Team
Well at -18 it will be much quieter. Opposed to -6. Perhaps there will not be as much of the static .
What is this baking?
Playing it back at higher volume?
What is this baking?
Playing it back at higher volume?