Keyboard to DAW correct method

LazerBeakShiek

Find Polaris..and Return
My keyboard is a USB type with 1/4" outputs, and no XLRs THEY ARE TRS capable. I am looking for the correct way to bring it in to the DAW. Firmly I believe in running the 1/4" cables to a Mic preamp with a Z input. This brings my keyboards to line level and boom it sounds like a million bucks. All strong like its supposed to be.

There is an option to run a USB input. If I use the USB as an input to the DAW will it need reamping? Because it does sound thin to me. Is USB same as line +4?

Edit they are TRS capable outputs.
 
You're very confused by these different outputs - USB is data only so the audio doesn't;t usually even go down that cable - You didn't tell us which keyboard you have so we can check, but normally, they have audio, in high impedance at the usual line level (note NOT +4dB) so go into the instrument inputs on whatever interface you have. Most have mic and guitar/line level ins, often on a combiner's connector. The keyboard normally has DIN socket MIDI out, in and maybe Thru, and the USB goes to your computer but this is normally for driving whatever software you use for recording - using synths or samplers, whatever you have available. The internal sounds of your keyboard can also be played back from the computer DAW, and the sound comes out the jacks. You say the USB sounds 'thin' - the USB is silent - the sounds could be being played by your computer, maybe running a generic General MIDI patch, but they certainly will not be the internal sounds from your keyboard unless it's very special, and/or expensive, and even then, I've not come across one that is an actual audio interface.

So - we're a bit confused about what's going on. tell us what it is, and we'll confirm, but most people just use the ¼" outs into their interface. Works fine.
 
The Fantom X. I work with Mic, instrument, and line level and signals all the time. Mic is the quietest, then instrument at say -10, and line +4. There is also broadcast +8.

Yes, so for LIVE playing the 1/4" cable takes the instruments level signal to the Preamp unit to be brought up to line level +4. Then carried on to my PA via TRS for amplification to speakers. Is this not how everyone does it?

Yes, my Fantom has a USB Roland driver that acts as a sound connection to record on a PC. I cannot find much on if that is the same as a +4 line level mixer bus or not.

On the mixer I can see that a Instrument cable has less volume. A XLR has more volume. A TRS cable connection seems to cary the best sound quality, but no phantom power ability as a downside for the connection type. No idea where the USB connection quality falls, but it sounds kind of wimpy on its own.
 
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A google search reveals that many people have difficulty getting the Fantom USB to work with more recent systems. Maybe it's used for audio, but from reading I get the sense that it's mainly for MIDI or storage.

When recording audio from keyboards I generally take audio out of keyboard and into interface with 6.5 jack to jack cables. However, just yesterday someone came in with a keyboard that had a very low signal, so I put that into a DI then into the interface.
 
LazerBeakShiek - you mentioned this +4 thing before. where are you getting this reading from? On every bit of interface kit I have, the highest the gain control can push levels to is 0dB. I have no facility whatsoever to get higher. Do you have some kind of additional meter? Even so, I can't see the point as the maximum digital level is 0, so if you plug a +4dB device in, you back the gain off to make the higher input level read correctly, and if you plug in a -10dB device you bang the gain up? The keyboard might be between the two, so again, +4dB doesn't come into it. I thought I understood your use of the term but now I've lost it. Very few people have equipment that outputs at the +4dB level on a jack or RCA it usually will be on a balanced connector. I've got mixers that output +4dB level on XLRs, -10dB level on jacks. Guitars will be lower than that, keyboards and synths hovering around the -10dB, and of course we're down to microvolts with mics on quiet sources. We're actually talking about voltages here not dB at all. so it's .775V for the unbalanced level and 1.4V for the so called pro level devices.

TRS is exactly the same 'quality' as unbalanced, it just lacks the noise rejection properties.

Roland Fantoms have this in the manual
Note: if you wish to route the sound (audio) of the Fantom-X into a computer, you will need to use an Audio Interface.

The Fantom can receive USB audio (perhaps from a mic), but can't send it to a DAW - the host computer detects it as a MIDI device and for storage, but it does not receive audio from the keyboard? It's a clever beast, but not that clever. I don't have one, but the manual and the Roland site are quite clear.

It wouldn't be that useful with a typical DAW because while Macs might be able to communicate with two audio devices at the same time, my PCs can't. So like practically everyone, Roland users have to stuff the audio from their synths into their interface. That's why I have duplicated most of my synths with VSTis - they're more practical to use.
 
No, I said that it can send the sound to the DAW through the USB connection. The Fantom can send the sound USB, the MIDI , patch edit, library, storage, all of it.

There is no information if that is the same as a +4 line bus off the mixer. Or if it needs to be reamped.

Everything that goes to my PA mixer is at +4 balanced as it enters. The inserts and aux send returns are TRS to maintain +4 balanced.
 
I run the audio outs from my Casio workstation directly into the line inputs on my AI, and sometimes also track the MIDI, if I think I might want to drive some pads, strings or synths with it later. Levels have never been an issue with my Tascam US800.
 
LazerBeakShiek - you mentioned this +4 thing before. where are you getting this reading from? On every bit of interface kit I have, the highest the gain control can push levels to is 0dB. I have no facility whatsoever to get higher. Do you have some kind of additional meter? Even so, I can't see the point as the maximum digital level is 0, so if you plug a +4dB device in, you back the gain off to make the higher input level read correctly, and if you plug in a -10dB device you bang the gain up? The keyboard might be between the two, so again, +4dB doesn't come into it. I thought I understood your use of the term but now I've lost it. Very few people have equipment that outputs at the +4dB level on a jack or RCA it usually will be on a balanced connector. I've got mixers that output +4dB level on XLRs, -10dB level on jacks. Guitars will be lower than that, keyboards and synths hovering around the -10dB, and of course we're down to microvolts with mics on quiet sources. We're actually talking about voltages here not dB at all. so it's .775V for the unbalanced level and 1.4V for the so called pro level devices.

TRS is exactly the same 'quality' as unbalanced, it just lacks the noise rejection properties.

Roland Fantoms have this in the manual
Note: if you wish to route the sound (audio) of the Fantom-X into a computer, you will need to use an Audio Interface.

The Fantom can receive USB audio (perhaps from a mic), but can't send it to a DAW - the host computer detects it as a MIDI device and for storage, but it does not receive audio from the keyboard? It's a clever beast, but not that clever. I don't have one, but the manual and the Roland site are quite clear.

It wouldn't be that useful with a typical DAW because while Macs might be able to communicate with two audio devices at the same time, my PCs can't. So like practically everyone, Roland users have to stuff the audio from their synths into their interface. That's why I have duplicated most of my synths with VSTis - they're more practical to use.

Rob, Samplitude Pro X 3, and other versions, reads up to +9dBfs! No idea why and I have never tried to push anything up there. I stay resolutely around neg 20.

Just FYI. I find the bloke hard to understand TBH.

Dave.
 
Is there a look up table anywhere that shows what digital full is on the meter scale? Surely in the digital domain a positive above 0dB level must confuse like mad?
 
Is there a look up table anywhere that shows what digital full is on the meter scale? Surely in the digital domain a positive above 0dB level must confuse like mad?

EDIT ah - I get it, we're talking about the input level scale! Cubase that I use has 6db of boost available on the input channel - but that's not an absolute value, just gain from infinity at the bottom to +6dB at the top - that's just headroom though, my inout fader sits on 0dB. In Cubase the +6dB level is also marked 0dB on the actual channel level meter, so it's just a fader setting. 0dB on the input level gives 0dB routed to the channel strip, again with a bit of boost available again, and the 0dB is also shown on the output meters that do not have any option to go above 0dB Pretty simply to analogue mixers really.
 
You're very confused by these different outputs - USB is data only so the audio doesn't;t usually even go down that cable

Now you've confused me. The ONLY link between my Lexicon interface and my Daw is a USB cable. I sing into my mic, which goes through the Lexicon, down the USB cable and prints to audio in the DAW.
My son's focusrite works exactly the same way as do dozens of other usb powered Audio Interfaces.
"USB is data only".
???????
 
Now you've confused me. The ONLY link between my Lexicon interface and my Daw is a USB cable. I sing into my mic, which goes through the Lexicon, down the USB cable and prints to audio in the DAW.
My son's focusrite works exactly the same way as do dozens of other usb powered Audio Interfaces.
"USB is data only".
???????

Rob is talking about midi output from a keyboard, not about an audio interface.
 
It looks like the Fantom can either be used for USB Midi, or USB audio data, as well as using the 1/4" line outputs for the audio and coaxial Digital Audio.

Going back to the OP, USB won't be a +4 or -10dB line input like you would have with normal audio gear. It will be in a format that the computer can read. The only way to meter that will be via whatever DAW metering you have. The voltages are constant whether it is midi or wav information and only the bit data changes.

With audio line levels, your reference is 0dBV which is referenced to 1v with voltage varying for the wave file. I can't find specs for the FantomX line levels, so they could be -10dB.
 
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