How to connect MIDI keyboard to a computer and get sound back in the keyboard

C

Celdor

New member
Hi,

I am new to this forum. I am also pretty much a newbie regarding Home Studio recording etc. so I decided to put my post in the Newbie section :)

I want to connect a DP to a computer via MIDI, use Pianoteq, and be able to hear sounds back in the DP. I also have an audio interface: Focusrite Saffire 24 that connects to a computer via FireWire.

I have realised that I need to connect DP directly to the computer via USB MIDI and set up Pianoteq; the audio interface has only old 5 PIN MIDI connectors. Pianoteq I think would not cause a problem. Although I have not downloaded it yet, I assume it would work. What I really struggle with is to understand how to connect everything back. The DP has an audio input for external audio devices such as iPad etc. I was hoping to use the audio interface for that and connect audio signal from Focusrite to the DP as it is quite high quality equipment. Also, DP comes with quite a good set of speakers.

I also have problem with I think it is called ground loop buzz when I connect both Focusrite via FireWire and DP via USB to the computer. Is it common problem and can I fix it?

I hope it is clear what I'd like to achieve and would be grateful for any comments and help.

Thanks
 
I take it the DP has built-in speakers? I would start by eliminating the audio interface from the picture-- connect the DP to the computer via USB, then connect the computer back to the DP via an audio cable.
 
What he said ^^^

Piano > USB > PC > audio out > Piano

That's the simplest configuration.

However, I would not be in a hurry to eliminate the interface. That's because you may well experience latency if using the computer's onboard sound for Piano Teq.

So I would try:

Piano > USB > PC > interface > interface audio out > piano

For 'ground buzz', for a start, make sure all your devices are powered from the same circuit.
 
Hello and thanks for the answers.
I have managed to get everything working yesterday. I have actually two DPs and both have speakers. In one of them I have experienced noise when connected both audio interface via FireWire and DP via USB. With the second DP, more expensive, I did not have this problem. So currently everything is working using interface :)

Thanks
 
Just to get this old head around things? Digital Piano, surely has its own power if it is driving speakers?
If so why USB? I assume it has a DIN MIDI out? So, DIN to AI, Fussywire to PC and AI back to DP amps?
Losing the USB connection eliminates one possible ground loop and it has to be said that IF you get a FWire lopp it can be the very divil to resolve!

Pianoteq is excellent. I bought the basic version for my son a few years ago, Very low CPU hit and very low latency with a middling decent AI and PC. Useful MIDI recording and export functions to boot.

Dave.
 
Chances are the digital piano only has MIDI via USB out - not audio in/out, and no MIDI DIN connection.
 
Celdor said:
I have realised that I need to connect DP directly to the computer via USB MIDI and set up Pianoteq; the audio interface has only old 5 PIN MIDI connectors.
Click to expand...

Yes, the above statement implies that the DP doesn't have 5-pin MIDI ports and therefore couldn't be connected to the audio interface for sending/receiving MIDI data.

As far as noise from the USB connection, a member on another forum that I read said he's gotten rid of all interface noise by removing the shielding and/or cutting the ground wire in all of his USB cables. I haven't tried it myself, yet, but it sounds like a cheaper alternative than buying a USB isolator: Amazon.com: usb isolator

From the other forum:

You cut the outer plastic around the lead, all the way around, in 2 places approximately 3cm apart. Then you remove the plastic and the shield mesh so that you are left with 3 thin leads. Cut the black one of these and patch it all together with electrical or other strong tape.
The last bit is important since you don't want to put any load on the 2 signal leads left.

Some times it works by only cutting the shield. For me it got a lot better with my MOXF after that but with also the ground cut it went completely silent.
Click to expand...
 
Hello again,

OK. As some have complained that I have not described the hardware, here you go:
- Computer: MacBook Pro, on OS X Yosemite
- Software: Pianoteq v5 (currently demo)
- Audio interface: Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP (the link to its Saffire 24 bersion
- Digital piano: Roland LX-7 with USB-B MIDI, Audio In, Line Out, 2 x Headphones (min jack and 1/4'' jack)

Everything is powered from mains: computer, audio interface, and DP.

I couldn't understand what's going on back to the interface and beyond. But then someone in a different forum explained that the interface would have the same (more or less) purpose as any internal sound card, and would be there to convert signals back from digital to analog. So I have managed to generate sound from Pianoteq v5 (demo) and can listen it using headphones connected to the interface; with ~ 300-500 samples and 8-10 ms latency.

I have one more dilemma. How should I connect the DP to the interface, so that I can hear everything using DP's speakers? The DP has one input called Audio In via mini jack whilst the interface has a couple of Line Outs and outputs to headphones. Which one would you suggest?

Thanks.

PS. I have provided link to Saffire 24. For some reasons I cannot find a manual to Saffire 24 DSP, which may have more outputs.
 
arcaxis said:
:confused:

I wish posters when asking questions would actually state what the gear is they are connecting, make, model, etc. Just stating "DP/digital piano" leaves too much to guess about how they're hooking it up and whether it's actually capable of what they want to do. It's easy for us to Google a piece of gear to see what it's about and get a manual if needed.
Click to expand...

Plus One with diamond encrusted knobs on Mark. In fact there are two "compulsories" I would lke to see.

Make and model of all equipment ,mentioned. Country where posting form. It is SUCH a PITS not knowing the mains voltage and currency of the OP! They can't ALL have their Old Ladies chasing them for back alimony!

Probably cannot make it compulsory but at least blokes like me could give a swift retort.."You will get no help until you give the details set out in...Di-da..!

Now. I painstakingly cut the shield on a USB cable. Did not do Jack S to fix a buzz. I dare say cutting the power neg return \s well might but mostly you need the juice. You COULD cut both and have a downstream 5V supply I suppose but then things are getting a bother?

To the OP. Yes, an internal soundcard (Ugh!) WILL decode data and give an output but almost any external AI will do it with better quality and lower latency. For something like the Native Instruments KA6, SUPREMELY better quality and the lowest latency you will get under £400.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
To the OP. Yes, an internal soundcard (Ugh!) WILL decode data
Click to expand...

Decode or convert? I am really in a Noob section which means simple and trivial things for you are and will be difficult to handle for me until I get some practice. I thought this section is to ask silly and trivial question as well as comment.
 
Celdor said:
Decode or convert? I am really in a Noob section which means simple and trivial things for you are and will be difficult to handle for me until I get some practice. I thought this section is to ask silly and trivial question as well as comment.
Click to expand...

Sorry! "loose talk causes confusion!" But then computer experts (of which I am CERTAINLY not one!) talk of "code" and that presumably needs DE coding so that Homo Sapiens can use it?

Yes, they are generally called digital to analogue converters and millions of litres of hot air has been spouted about them, much of it total bllx. The truth is (AFAICT over some 10 years of interest) is that TODAY, if you pay about $100 us for an interface, the converters are likely to be close to "perfection". If you compare such an AI to one costing $2000 us you might just hear a difference on critacl material and auditioned on $10,000 monitors in a very well treated room.

Considering the audio ***t most of us put up with from TV, pods,pads and pones almost any interface is waaaay better!

Dave.
 
Celdor said:
Hello again,

OK. As some have complained that I have not described the hardware, here you go:
- Computer: MacBook Pro, on OS X Yosemite
- Software: Pianoteq v5 (currently demo)
- Audio interface: Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP (the link to its Saffire 24 bersion
- Digital piano: Roland LX-7 with USB-B MIDI, Audio In, Line Out, 2 x Headphones (min jack and 1/4'' jack)

Everything is powered from mains: computer, audio interface, and DP.

I couldn't understand what's going on back to the interface and beyond. But then someone in a different forum explained that the interface would have the same (more or less) purpose as any internal sound card, and would be there to convert signals back from digital to analog. So I have managed to generate sound from Pianoteq v5 (demo) and can listen it using headphones connected to the interface; with ~ 300-500 samples and 8-10 ms latency.

I have one more dilemma. How should I connect the DP to the interface, so that I can hear everything using DP's speakers? The DP has one input called Audio In via mini jack whilst the interface has a couple of Line Outs and outputs to headphones. Which one would you suggest?

Thanks.

PS. I have provided link to Saffire 24. For some reasons I cannot find a manual to Saffire 24 DSP, which may have more outputs.
Click to expand...

Well now we're getting somewhere! Yes, the external audio interface takes the place of the internal soundcard, but provides superior D-to-A conversion, lower latency and more connection and routing choices.

To connect two of the Saffire's line outs to your keyboard - note you will want to do it with two, one set for left and one set for right):
use ONE OF THESE
 
According to the owner's manual for the Saffire Pro 24, Headphones 1 is a copy of line outputs 3 and 4 (see page 17). So I'm guessing that each line output is mono (i.e., just the left or right channel), hence it would be simplest to just run an audio cable from one of the headphone jacks to the keyboard's audio in. Otherwise you'd need to use a cable that has two separate mono plugs for the left and right channels on one end and a single stereo plug on the other end.

EDIT: Sorry, I was replying to your post at the bottom of page 1 and didn't realize there were responses on a second page.
 
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Hello again,

Thanks for the comments. I found out I could use either Line Out or headphone output from the Saffire interface. I have chosen headphone output because the signal is stronger. And thanks for pointing out the exact page! Really, appreciate it.

So the situation is that I have sound in the DP (Roland LX-7). I had to take analogue signal from headphone's output to the DP "Audio In" input. The bad news now is there is high frequency buzz noise in the DP which somehow "changes" whenever I operate the laptop (MacBook Pro). The noise is not present while listen to sound using headphones connected to the interface; the noise appears in the DP while DP is connected to the interface, via headphone output. Also, importaly, it doesn't matter if I use Line Out or HF Out. The noise seems to be the same. I tried to disconnect mains from the Interface and the laptop and the high frequency noise disappeared but it was replaced with low frequency hum noise :/ Now, I don't know which one is related to ground loop noise. I though I would sort it out and I am clueless :/ again. It's frustrating.

What would you suggest now? I have written to Focusrite Support team. Perhaps they can advice on that.

As a note, the interface can work without powering as FireWire can supply power to the device. I think it can work with some limits though. I could also work on Laptop's battery but it's an old one and I would prefer the laptop to be connected to mains.

Thanks
 
Low frequency hum is usually a ground issue. Laptop power supplies can be noisy - did you try running the system on battery power (just to see if it made a difference?)
Is it possible your Roland audio input is messed up? can you plug an iPod or something into it to see if ht enoise is there? Try a different connection cable?
 
mjbphotos said:
Low frequency hum is usually a ground issue. Laptop power supplies can be noisy - did you try running the system on battery power (just to see if it made a difference?)
Is it possible your Roland audio input is messed up? can you plug an iPod or something into it to see if ht enoise is there? Try a different connection cable?
Click to expand...

Yes I did try what you suggest. I tried four possibilities:
1. everything was connected to mains: I've got high freq noise in speakers in the DP
2. I disconnected only the interface: I still could hear the same buzz high freq noise
3. I disconnected only the laptop: there was still high freq noise and I think it wasn't much quieter than in option 1.
4. I disconnected everything but DP from mains: the noise was completely different and it was a low freq hum.

I did try Roland DP input by connecting iPhone to it and listen a few songs and I could not hear any noise. The sound was clear. I think Roland DP is OK.

EDIT: the cable and connectors are of rather high quality.

PS> I think it could be important to point that the noise in DP is louder or quieter if I increase or decrease volume in DP!
 
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Interesting topic,,, but just reading through, I had one thought,,,

Why do you want the sim to be routed back through the Roland, and I figure it's because it has 6 speakers,, and you prefer or do not have monitors.

and now another thought, lol...
Are you using and running through a DAW, and if so, which DAW ?

The high pitch noise you are hearing is possibly the computer itself,,, I know it sounds weird but could be from something else like a Ceiling fan, Wall lightswitch dimmer, other electrical appliances ,,, try turning some thing off and seeing if it goes away,,,
Could even be the Roland and/or computer power supplies,,, or laptop running on battery not plugged in,,,
By all this I mean to point out, unplugging the computer wall power supply from the wall,,, and any other appliances...

If the Roland has any sound issues on it's own, even low hum, it can be from another appliance / device you would not normally consider...

That Roland looks rather nice, I would think it's sounds would be rather nice as it is not a cheap keyboard, lol,,,
I do agree Pianoteq is very nice. I use it with my Keylab88 weighted keys, and feels rather nice with good piano plugins,,,

And If having to break a loop, I wouldn't do it on the USB cable, I would do it through the 1/4 outs back into the Roland,,,
 
The Rocker said:
And If having to break a loop, I wouldn't do it on the USB cable, I would do it through the 1/4 outs back into the Roland,,,
Click to expand...

I should have mentioned that in the case of the member from the other forum who cut his USB cable's ground wire, the USB cable was being used to transmit audio data, either directly from his MOXF* to his computer, or from an audio interface to his computer. If a USB cable is being used to transmit MIDI data only, cutting the ground wire in it wouldn't help.

* Most Yamaha keyboards don't transmit or receive audio data through their USB connections, but the MOXF does.
 
The Rocker said:
Why do you want the sim to be routed back through the Roland, and I figure it's because it has 6 speakers,, and you prefer or do not have monitors.
Click to expand...
it's true. I don't have monitors and thought to use Roland's internal speakers. Currently I use headphones connected to the interface and have no problems with annoying noise etc.--having said that, please read my comments at the bottom while I have tested other Line Outs. In the end, I would be happy to play through piano speakers but wouldn't mind to buy external monitors.

The Rocker said:
and now another thought, lol...
Are you using and running through a DAW, and if so, which DAW ?
Click to expand...
Focusrite interface application Saffire MixControl, or something like this. I have Reaper but have not even run the whole thing through it.

The Rocker said:
The high pitch noise you are hearing is possibly the computer itself,,, I know it sounds weird but could be from something else like a Ceiling fan, Wall lightswitch dimmer, other electrical appliances ,,, try turning some thing off and seeing if it goes away,,,
Could even be the Roland and/or computer power supplies,,, or laptop running on battery not plugged in,,,
By all this I mean to point out, unplugging the computer wall power supply from the wall,,, and any other appliances...

If the Roland has any sound issues on it's own, even low hum, it can be from another appliance / device you would not normally consider...

That Roland looks rather nice, I would think it's sounds would be rather nice as it is not a cheap keyboard, lol,,,
I do agree Pianoteq is very nice. I use it with my Keylab88 weighted keys, and feels rather nice with good piano plugins,,,
Click to expand...
Apart from laptop used to operate the audio interface and Pianoteq, the only thing I can think of is a set of lamps connected to the same power socket but they are usually turned off and another computer at the other corner of the room connected to other power socket.

I tested something else yesterday. I tested balanced TRS and unbalanced TS cables connected from Roland's Line Outs to the interface's audio in--direct audio signal from DP to the interface without the laptop. Balanced TRS cables did not cause any noise whereas unbalanced TS cables caused the same or similar noise.

The Rocker said:
And If having to break a loop, I wouldn't do it on the USB cable, I would do it through the 1/4 outs back into the Roland,,,
Click to expand...
It doesn't look expensive but I must ask. If there is problem with other appliances that cause the noise or even if it's Roland itself that has the problem, would ground loop isolator sort it out?

Thanks

PS. I think as suggested I need to disconnect laptop from mains to see if the problem exists.
 
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