Home recording first kit for classical violin

marco.swe

New member
Hello and thanks for the time and advice you are going to dedicate for me :)

My girlfriend is a classical violinist and I have just started to get into home recording.
Therefore I have saved some money and purchased the following equipment to record a solo violin and to start to learn:

- Audio USB interface: PRESONUS STUDIO 26
- Microphone: AKG C1000S
- Monitor speakers: pair of KRK Rokit 6
- Monitor headphones: AKG K182

Everything I bought I did it reading on the web and the interest in the subject is starting to be very intense now, same as realizing my ignorance on this subject will need me to read and learn a lot about this.

Only after few days of trials I realized the audio recorded with the AKG C1000S is quite flat and not as I expected. Reading again on internet, I decided to immediately go for a microphone upgrade. I was thinking to buy a Röde NT5 (which is the difference from Röde NT55?) or a Neumann KM184. What do you recommend?

At today I have placed the microphone about 500mm from the violin from above. Any of you have experience on classical violin recording?

All my choices are only based on reading reviews and trying to get info on internet as my knowledge is really poor for the moment.

Is it something you would advice me?
The budget for the microphone is not bigger than 600€.

The Presonus Studio 26 comes with "Studio One" artist software. Shall I spend some time to learn that or do you recommend another software?


Thanks a lot again :-)
 
Please post a recording of the violin you've done so far, and what the room is like, any effects you're using in the mix. Also, bit-rate/depth settings for the recording, and a non-compressed raw WAV or similiar of the raw take. SoundCloud is a good, free place to post - you can upload the uncompressed file, and enable downloads so we can get to that without making a quick listen difficult, since they'll create a compressed version for streaming.

I started my recording "hobby" with fiddle camps and recording our kids at their recitals, through summer camp and college auditions.

That mic should be sufficient to get a good recording, IMO, though possibly not the best and you could spend more, but it's probably not the fault. The room makes a huge difference in violin recording because you can't really close mic - between the bow(ing) and violinist moving around, your distance (0.5m) is probably about as close as you can get. I would usually mic with a single SDC on the violin above and slightly behind, pointing down at the body, well clear of the upward extent of the bow. You really don't want your mic to be the reason the bow tip gets knocked off, or the mic toppled to the floor from a height of a couple meters!
 
Here's an excerpt I pulled from an old video (2010) I did for a camp audition. This was in our living room, and is, unfortunately, pulled from a highly compressed YouTube video (original video & audio is gone). Mic placement was to the side and pointing at the instrument, probably closer to 1m, and I'm guessing it was recorded too hot, but a lot of what I'm hearing could be compression/recompression artifacts. At that time, I was almost certainly *not* using any effects in the recordings because I didn't want to adulterate the audition content.

Allemanda - Excerpt Dropbox MP3 download link

violinrec.jpg
 
Only after few days of trials I realized the audio recorded with the AKG C1000S is quite flat and not as I expected. Reading again on internet, I decided to immediately go for a microphone upgrade. I was thinking to buy a Röde NT5 (which is the difference from Röde NT55?) or a Neumann KM184. What do you recommend?

Please don't do that. Not yet.
You should post a segment of the recorded audio. I would love to hear it.

Just looked up the violin frequency range, and the lows pretty much stop at 200hz, so maybe a little boost below that range will give it a little more bottom. Maybe a compressor could even do the trick.
Before making any major purchases try making sure you absolutely cannot achieve your sound with your current set up. Experiment with distance from the microphone and fiddle with your basic plugins like I'd mentioned.
 
Hello and thanks for your answer :thumbs up:.
The system doesn't let me yet upload any media files or link at this moment. It seems I need to post little more before that.

Have read the NT5 as the KM184 are quite bright mic so maybe not really optimal for high frequencies as violin melodies?
I still have to figure out how to use Compressor or other EQ functions in "Studio One".

Will try to upload the track/link as soon as the forum will allow me.

Thanks for help.
 
Hello again. You can open the link by pasting this line in your browser:

soundcloud.com/marco-rossi-21/campanella
 
Hello again. You can open the link by pasting this line in your browser:

soundcloud.com/marco-rossi-21/campanella
Well that is not bad fiddling there! What, precisely, are you finding missing in that?

Not sure what [MENTION=105765]garww[/MENTION] was getting at with his comment, but one thing you have to come to grips with is that the sound under your ear is not going to be the same sound the microphone picks up at some distance from the violin. The response curve of that AKG does accentuate the highs a bit - not unusual - but if you are trying to hear a "fatter" sound, then I'd start with a little bit of EQ.

Compression is tricky, and it's not going to create something that's not there in the first place. It just squeezes things together, removing some of the dynamics, while increasing the risk of increasing stuff you don't want to hear more of, especially in a solo instrument like the violin. I do hear some background noise, but that could simply be in the room. Getting the gain on the mic right for the distance/placement, and record volume set properly are part of the process, especially if you're not in an isolated recording space.

I did see that you're recording at 24-bit. Did you upload the original .WAV file? If you did, just enable downloads so we can see the original amplitude.

You could compress it some, but that would be one of the last things I'd address.
 
Your learning curve is going to be hellish. The C1000 is NOT flat, far from it - it's just that you picked a microphone well known for being a right PITA! It's the microphone of choice for many schools and colleges, and is just a pretty unforgiving, hard, brittle, revealing microphone. It can sound good - BUT, and it's a big but, it's has the unpleasant characteristic of being suitable for some sources and terrible on others. I found it quite nice on a weak cello - just pure luck the two were a decent match.

However, the first thing you need to do before wasting money is listen seriously to the tone of the instrument in your recording room. Block up one ear - and ear plug, or even a jam in your ear bud type headphone and leave unplugged. Now use your ear like a microphone. Pick the spot you would have put a mic and have a listen to your girlfriend playing. Listen for the tone of the two lowest strings, and listen for the tone when she plays on the highest string nearer the bridge. What does it sound like? Hard, mellow, strident, beautiful? Chances are that the room will play a huge part in the sound you hear, and see if you can find a location where it sounds the closest to how you want it to sound. Frankly, it's no use whatsoever asking her. She will have spent her learning life on the instrument listing to it's close in perspective, an will use that as her yardstick for comparison. This isn't what everyone else hears. Once you have found the best position, then that's where the mic goes. If your instrument is strong at the bottom end and you know you will need less of this and more of the HF for detail, then a small diaphragm condenser could be the nice choice - and not even a hugely expensive one. If on the other hand it's weaker at the bottom, then a large diaphragm type could redress the balance - this all before you even touch the eq. If you record in a gorgeous sounding room, then a more distant mic position will introduce room sound. If the room is square with parallel walls and ceilings, then it will probably not be good for recording in unless you treat it properly, and moving the mic closer is the only option. If you do this, it becomes very dry, so a decent artificial reverb is your saviour.

This leads on to the recording software. It will do as a basic DAW - but it's not the best in the world, or really even close. It lets you record with no problems as the key feature is the quality. It's a new piece of probably ok software, but most people use cubase, logic, adobe audition, the freebie audacity or a few others. I don't know anyone yet who uses the persons - don't mean it's rubbish, but I suspect the add ons are where they make their money.

Mic choice wise - once you know your weak area where the instrument doesn't shine, you buy a mic known to flatter that area. Not all instruments record well at all - some expensive ones are truly dire, but in a church or concert hall use their sharpness or cutting sound to advantage. These ones record horribly in my experience. You also have player defects to consider. The sniffers, the ones who make odd noises and the worst, the ones who seem to create so much bow noise you find it impossible to control. Some just seem to have a permanent squeak, others play with gusto and you can hear their fingers hammering on the fingerboard! Some instruments are also more directional, so if they are an animated player, they change the mic position to the instrument by far too much impacting on the levels - and a fluctuating level is almost impossible to repair or disguise.

The Rode could be good, but possibly not - we really cannot tell you. Hence why we asked to hear what you recorded, we're more interested in the sound captured by a mic we know well.

You also need to get out of thinking about money. I know you have a budget, but in music, if the mic to do your job is 650, and the 590 is not as good, you will kick yourself for ever. On top of this - what if you then have to record something else your 590 is less good at but the 650 one would have managed? For your entire life you will be faced with this choice, and I have too many mics that are good for one thing, and very few good for everything. If I had bought just two good on everything mics, and not bought the rest, I'd now be richer!

Seriously though - we do realise what you mean about the budget - but I suspect you will not find it a problem to get something nicer sounding (note: not better - just different!)

Also worth noting that you might want to persevere with the C1000 and experiment. I, and loads of people really despise the damn things, but some people have got good results with them - on certain sound sources. In my head I can hear your recording already.

EDIT - sorry for duplication, but this took ages to type!

EDIT EDIT - just played the recording and yes, that's a C1000.


I'll leave others to comment on possible alternatives, but you also have a couple of playing issues that will be tricky to manage.

She does have a percussive fingering technique, you can hear this plainly, but she's also playing an instrument that is very lively, damping wise, and too many string changes leave the old one ringing. Some players cover this with their left hand fingering technique. The strings she uses also have damping built in to the wound ones - the trouble is that lively strings respond really well to quick bowing, and more damped strings resist the startup of the bow, but these ones don't ring out so much. From a distance, as an audience hears the instrument that sound you recorded isn't heard - but close in it is. I suspect she will not, at her standard, be able to change her technique - she's too good, so only a more distant mic position will work with ANY mic. This means a decent room. All tricky stuff.

As for compression - if you can hear it, it's too much. Compression is not a viable technique for this type of music - in fact, squeezing the last bit of dynamics out of it is normally the quest. Violins sound weird with compression.
 
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One problem with violin is poor monitoring

Some instruments, like the recorder, can be powerful and strident. A tick one way or the other on a dial to find the spot. Speakers, and further, 2-way speakers might not get it.

4961119486_6b34024d40.jpg


We know recordings put forth the best, but it is easy to never hear strings that sound good. I have one set of boxes that do OK
 
Hello everyone and thanks for your answers, specially to rob aylestone :-)

I will make treasure of your information. Anyway ( :) ) I have decided to return my AKG C1000S and to buy a pair of Röde NT-55. I will then have 2 microphone to make some test recording in mono and stereo with my guitar and keep learning theory and practice behind home recording.

What do you think about these microphones? When I will record the violin again (maybe in few weeks), I will compare the registration with the one did with C1000S and let you know.
Thanks a lot for the moment!
 
I've not used that specific mic, but its hi-freq boost is much smoother (on paper) than the AKG, so should be less problematic. However, it really matters how it sounds in the room with the instrument you are recording. As you noticed, I hope, the violin doesn't sound as good close-mic'd as many other instruments, since it tends to accentuate those finger and string noises. Unlike a guitar, where the fingers are pretty far from the soundboard, and you can use the angle and pattern to minimize those sounds, the violin's size pretty well guarantees you'll be capturing that extra stuff until you get far enough away to hear mostly just the musical tones. And, then, you're getting a lot of the room. So, some of what you hear in the recording might be technique, and some can be mic placement - lots of experimentation required.

Me, my main SDC (an old beat up AT4051a) has a pretty bumpy specsheet curve, but it sounds pretty good to me most of the time. I really like the Shure SM81 as an alternative, too.

A matched pair of good SDCs is a very nice thing to have in your kit, regardless. It's ideal for duo acoustic instruments since it eliminates weird sound "wandering" as possibly different mic EQ curves pick up more or less of the distant instrument (lesson learned the hard way).

Good luck.
 
Just to throw a spanner in the works, have you thought about a DPA clip on mic? Not cheap but sound great, and you can use live if you want. Would also eliminate the room sound to a degree.

LINK

Alan.
 
My Thoughts

I have recorded a LOT of violin over the years, and I find most condenser mics are too bright without getting some distance from the violin in a warm sounding room.
For close miking I have used ribbon mics with great success. placing it forward of the violinist but below violin scroll level or behind the violinist and over the right shoulder (for right handed players) if you want an edgier bow sound.
Even the MXL ribbon has fared well at this and can be had for little money here in the US.

Ribbons do take a little more gain, but not generally a problem with the volume of the violin.
 
Nice recordings really - but I cannot resolve hearing the reverberation of a substantial size space in the open air - it would sound very dry and perhaps even unpleasant outside, but the reverb makes it look like a cheat, which you don't want. A tricky one, because the performance is nicely captured. Perhaps too reverberant for my taste, but a mismatch with the outside environment.
 
Nice recordings really - but I cannot resolve hearing the reverberation of a substantial size space in the open air - it would sound very dry and perhaps even unpleasant outside, but the reverb makes it look like a cheat, which you don't want. A tricky one, because the performance is nicely captured. Perhaps too reverberant for my taste, but a mismatch with the outside environment.

Thanks for a good input!
I agree :-)
 
Maybe just rethink the video to get you into appropriate acoustic spaces - factories, empty churches, caves (played down one once, was cool!) That would match what you hear better?
 
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