GAP73+UR22 or UR22+Shure 7b

[polkor]

Hello
Cant find answer anywhere and Steinberg is not interested in customer inquiries
I want to purchase or Shure 7b or GAP 73 to supplement my UR22.
Does UR22 have enough gain for SM7b ?I am loud in front of mic but is it enough to have UR22 works well with 7b?Or do i need Fethead?
Golden Age project add "color" to recordings so if signal goes from external mic preamp through UR22 will i received "colored" sound from GAP or sound from UR 22 D-Pre. Is it possible to bypass those preamps?


Thanks

 

[ecc83]

Hello
Cant find answer anywhere and Steinberg is not interested in customer inquiries
I want to purchase or Shure 7b or GAP 73 to supplement my UR22.
Does UR22 have enough gain for SM7b ?I am loud in front of mic but is it enough to have UR22 works well with 7b?Or do i need Fethead?
Golden Age project add "color" to recordings so if signal goes from external mic preamp through UR22 will i received "colored" sound from GAP or sound from UR 22 D-Pre. Is it possible to bypass those preamps?


Thanks

The UR22 has 54dB maximum gain and it is true that you could wish for another 6dB at least for a 7b but, the UR22 is noted for very low noise pre amps and noise is the killer here. It might be a bit of a faff but even if the general level into the DAW is at -25dBFS, even a bit lower (24 bits!) you can boost it digitally and not get a noise penalty.

The problem is of course that AI mnfcts hardly EVER give an input figure, XmV/dBu for Y dBFS, say -18dBFS. Given that information we could make a very good educated guess as to mic/AI suitability.

There is of course the anomalous situation that you want to use a 'budget', £100 AI with a top class £300 mic! Then again, I don't know of an AI of sensible monies with a lot more gain than the UR22 AND lower noise?

Here in UK we have the 'Distance Trading Regulations'. These allow you to return a product at no cost within 7 days (might be 14?) and you do not have to give ANY reason.

Dave.

 

[drtechno]

Hello
Cant find answer anywhere and Steinberg is not interested in customer inquiries
I want to purchase or Shure 7b or GAP 73 to supplement my UR22.
Does UR22 have enough gain for SM7b ?I am loud in front of mic but is it enough to have UR22 works well with 7b?Or do i need Fethead?
Golden Age project add "color" to recordings so if signal goes from external mic preamp through UR22 will i received "colored" sound from GAP or sound from UR 22 D-Pre. Is it possible to bypass those preamps?


Thanks

The Shure 7b. + Studio Projects VTB1 and use a balanced 1/4"trs to 1/4"trs cable. the 1/4 on the ur22 is balanced trs and bypasses the Mic's phantom blocking caps. Which is the cause of the degradation of the signal when you normally connect a mic pre to a mic pre.

Just for you to know, the GAP 73 has a badly designed ground, and there are better 1073 clones that are available retail as well in kit form.

 

[Mack Caster]

Hello
Cant find answer anywhere and Steinberg is not interested in customer inquiries
I want to purchase or Shure 7b or GAP 73 to supplement my UR22.
Does UR22 have enough gain for SM7b ?

No. You need a min of 60dbs. As mentioned above, if your unit only has 53dbs of gain, I can promise you will need more then 6 extra dbs. You should never run your pres at 100% wide open unless you are willing to spend the $$$ for certain models that have this ability. You may want to look into the cloudlifter. It has an additional 25dbs and is commonly used with the 7b.

I am loud in front of mic but is it enough to have UR22 works well with 7b?Or do i need Fethead?

Having a loud voice does nothing for the proper amount of gain needed for the 7b. Moving closer or further away will help with the "Proximity Effect". Moving closer will make your voice sound bassy and moving away will make it sound thin.

Golden Age project add "color" to recordings so if signal goes from external mic preamp through UR22 will i received "colored" sound from GAP or sound from UR 22 D-Pre. Is it possible to bypass those preamps? Thanks

As long as you can get close to 70dbs of clean gain, you can move forward.

 

[polkor]

The UR22 has 54dB maximum gain and it is true that you could wish for another 6dB at least for a 7b but, the UR22 is noted for very low noise pre amps and noise is the killer here. It might be a bit of a faff but even if the general level into the DAW is at -25dBFS, even a bit lower (24 bits!) you can boost it digitally and not get a noise penalty.

The problem is of course that AI mnfcts hardly EVER give an input figure, XmV/dBu for Y dBFS, say -18dBFS. Given that information we could make a very good educated guess as to mic/AI suitability.

There is of course the anomalous situation that you want to use a 'budget', £100 AI with a top class £300 mic! Then again, I don't know of an AI of sensible monies with a lot more gain than the UR22 AND lower noise?

Here in UK we have the 'Distance Trading Regulations'. These allow you to return a product at no cost within 7 days (might be 14?) and you do not have to give ANY reason.

Dave.

thanks for the info ! unfortunately i live in Asia and have to order through dealers . They are not flexible on returns since they get stuff from EU or USA

The Shure 7b. + Studio Projects VTB1 and use a balanced 1/4"trs to 1/4"trs cable. the 1/4 on the ur22 is balanced trs and bypasses the Mic's phantom blocking caps. Which is the cause of the degradation of the signal when you normally connect a mic pre to a mic pre.

Just for you to know, the GAP 73 has a badly designed ground, and there are better 1073 clones that are available retail as well in kit form.

i understand that 1/4 balance TRS cable is a solution to bypass UR22 preamps? can you recommend any other "colored" preamps in similar price range

No. You need a min of 60dbs. As mentioned above, if your unit only has 53dbs of gain, I can promise you will need more then 6 extra dbs. You should never run your pres at 100% wide open unless you are willing to spend the $$$ for certain models that have this ability. You may want to look into the cloudlifter. It has an additional 25dbs and is commonly used with the 7b.



Having a loud voice does nothing for the proper amount of gain needed for the 7b. Moving closer or further away will help with the "Proximity Effect". Moving closer will make your voice sound bassy and moving away will make it sound thin.



As long as you can get close to 70dbs of clean gain, you can move forward.

i heard about cloudlifter . How about bit cheaper fethead?

 

[ecc83]

Since you seem set on the 7b you might as well get it and give it a do?

If you then find the UR22 wanting you can look into pre amps and such. I have yet to see any solid evidence that phantom power blocking capacitors cause any trouble. D.Self cautions that such caps (anywhere in the audio path) should be large enough that no significant voltage is developed across them but other than that fine.
In the specific case of a very low mic signal there is little fear of such voltages! A volt rms produces measureable distortion but tis still very low. I doubt it could be measured at mic mV levels due to noise.

Take it one step at a time chap!

Dave.

 

[drtechno]

i understand that 1/4 balance TRS cable is a solution to bypass UR22 preamps? can you recommend any other "colored" preamps in similar price range

The vtb-1 is mic pre based off of the Universal audio 710 circuit. I haven't seen anyone else at that price range for those specifications. You see, the SM7b was originally designed for the radio broadcaster and their mixing boards had an input impedance of 100-200 ohms.

A cloudlifter is just an active buffer that simulates a 1:10 step up transformer. It seems that there has been some sort of buzz/hype with this box. After my dbx project I will show you guys how to build one since its a $20 circuit (wow, they really been taking advantage, $250 retail, sheesh! )

 

[Mack Caster]

i heard about cloudlifter . How about bit cheaper fethead?

There is nothing wrong with using the fethead. It is well established within the audio community. As long as you do not need to open your gain up 100% on your AI, to get the 7b to work with the fethead, it will do just fine. ;-)

 

[arcaxis]

I opted for a Fethead for my SM7b. It works fine and I saved a few bucks over the Cloudlifter. Nice thing about the Fethead is you can mount it directly to the mic.

 

[drtechno]

There is nothing wrong with using the fethead. It is well established within the audio community. As long as you do not need to open your gain up 100% on your AI, to get the 7b to work with the fethead, it will do just fine. ;-)

a fethead is nothing more than a buffer. Never really heard of it until I it appeared on here. But its the same thing a cloudliter is. Btw that one probably could be made for like $10. But I noticed they are trying to fill a niche: people who don't have the correct mic preamp.

 

[Mack Caster]

a fethead is nothing more than a buffer. Never really heard of it until I it appeared on here. But its the same thing a cloudliter is. Btw that one probably could be made for like $10. But I noticed they are trying to fill a niche: people who don't have the correct mic preamp.

Yep! That's why we pull into micky ds and spend $20 for something we could make at home for $5. p.s. A fethead is second class compared to a cloudlifter. It all comes down to clean gain as well as the mic it will be used with. The best solution is to spend the $1,500 for the proper pre amp used by the pros for high gain mics.

 

[arcaxis]

Comparison of the Cloudlifter vs Fethead......

A fethead is second class compared to a cloudlifter.

Not really. Different packages and perform about equally. The Cloudlifter is overpriced for what it is. If you look through other forums other than GS you'll find a predominance of Fethead users.

 

[Mack Caster]

The Cloudlifter is overpriced for what it is. If you look through other forums other than GS you'll find a predominance of Fethead users.

I will rely on first hand experience in high dollar professional studios, seeing both of them in action. I don't need to read anything nor watch videos of someones opinion. There is a great difference between boosting gain and ultra clean gain. Having the proper gain to power the 7b is not where you want to skimp on the device delivering it.

If you have to buy the fethead or cloudlifter you have already ****ed up by taking advice from someone, who had no business giving it in the first place or you simply do not have the knowledge to make an educated decision. If you want to use the 7b, then you need to have the power to run it without having to use something else to help get you there.

 

[drtechno]

Comparison of the Cloudlifter vs Fethead......




Not really. Different packages and perform about equally. The Cloudlifter is overpriced for what it is. If you look through other forums other than GS you'll find a predominance of Fethead users.

I thought it was funny they mentioned black lion Audio's mic preamp, but not the model. If they were talking about the Auteur MKII 500, That one is not designed for low z mics. However, if someone changes 6 parts, it would be noise free for low-Z microphones. I had someone bring me a B12A MKII Mic Pre to modify for noise issues. It turned out that the Wima caps they installed were counterfeit parts. I installed better caps than wimas in it and it worked quite nice. I still don't understand the hype with them, they are actually poor quality film caps.

 

[arcaxis]

I will rely on first hand experience in high dollar professional studios, seeing both of them in action. I don't need to read anything nor watch videos of someones opinion. There is a great difference between boosting gain and ultra clean gain. Having the proper gain to power the 7b is not where you want to skimp on the device delivering it.

If you have to buy the fethead or cloudlifter you have already ****ed up by taking advice from someone, who had no business giving it in the first place or you simply do not have the knowledge to make an educated decision. If you want to use the 7b, then you need to have the power to run it without having to use something else to help get you there.

You seem to be forgetting this forum is 'Home Recording' where folks starting out don't have an endless supply of cash.

 

[Steenamaroo]

The UR22 has 54dB maximum gain and it is true that you could wish for another 6dB at least for a 7b but, the UR22 is noted for very low noise pre amps and noise is the killer here. It might be a bit of a faff but even if the general level into the DAW is at -25dBFS, even a bit lower (24 bits!) you can boost it digitally and not get a noise penalty.

I've used less than 54db preamps with fine results.
This obsession with Fetheads and Cloudlifters is largely just people repeating what they've heard,
like saying Reaper does everything any other daw does.

It doesn't.
It's great, but it doesn't.

If you have a 7b on a guitar amp, snare, or loud singer, you don't need > 60db gain.

Apparently the preamps in my 828mk2 have around 40. I couldn't have told you that.

 

[keith.rogers]

thanks for the info ! unfortunately i live in Asia and have to order through dealers . They are not flexible on returns since they get stuff from EU or USA

i understand that 1/4 balance TRS cable is a solution to bypass UR22 preamps? can you recommend any other "colored" preamps in similar price range

i heard about cloudlifter . How about bit cheaper fethead?

I don't have one of these, but have come close a couple times - There is a GAP Pre-73 Jr model that has some good reviews that does cost more than the Cloudlifter, but retains that "color" of the full Pre73 model. Besides the Gain control there is also an Output which means you don't have to push the gain to "100%" to get a good signal, i.e., it lets you dial in the amount of color.

You are correct that if you take a balanced output from a separate mic preamp (like a Pre73 Jr), and use a balanced 1/4" TRS plug into the UR22, it will bypass the UR22's mic pre's (according to the manual).

As others have noted, you won't be able to get the 7b the proper amount of gain with the UR22 alone. (Edit: not saying some people can't make it work, but it's going to be maxed out, and likely not low-noise!) Myself, I've been able to turn off the GAS for now and decided to stick with mics I know my interface can handle, at least until I can actually try out some of these combinations. It's too much money to spend and simply hope for some "magic" I think - and I live where I can take it back if it doesn't work out!

 

[drtechno]

You seem to be forgetting this forum is 'Home Recording' where folks starting out don't have an endless supply of cash.

Well I supplied the cheapest entry lowZ transformer mic preamp. $200 is not a lot of money. That's around the price of a budget condenser mic.

I rather have the correct tool for the job.

There is single 990 or api2520 based clones out there that do the job too @ $500.


So what do you want? a mic pre in the $100-$150 range?

Besides that, the VTB-1 mic pre is about $50 cheaper than a cloudlifter, and its a UA710 clone. So you can go from clean to warm and everything in between.

 

[Mack Caster]

You seem to be forgetting this forum is 'Home Recording' where folks starting out don't have an endless supply of cash.

With all due respect, that is the first thing I think of when I reply. It is not the studios that have the fretheads and cloudlifters, it is the people bringing them in with the 7bs. My goal is and has always been to keep them from throwing their money down the rabbit hole. My response to you had nothing to do with how much money was involved, it was over YOUR comparison concerning the frethead vrs the cloudlifter. Lets keep the apples and oranges in separate buckets.

 

[jimmys69]

I will rely on first hand experience in high dollar professional studios, seeing both of them in action. I don't need to read anything nor watch videos of someones opinion. There is a great difference between boosting gain and ultra clean gain. Having the proper gain to power the 7b is not where you want to skimp on the device delivering it.

If you have to buy the fethead or cloudlifter you have already ****ed up by taking advice from someone, who had no business giving it in the first place or you simply do not have the knowledge to make an educated decision. If you want to use the 7b, then you need to have the power to run it without having to use something else to help get you there.

I'm not sure I understand what you said here. Is it that you feel one does not need gain from an interface or that you do need gain from an interface? Something to increase that gain is ****ed up?

I am confused and a bit taken aback by your recent stride in comments. I understand 'as you have quoted me' that things get lost between the lines of text. But what up with the personal stabbing at members and being overall a grouchy pants? WTF Mack?

We can have a discussion without telling people they are fucked.

I personally have invested in interfaces and/or preamps that do not necessarily need extra gain for the SM7b. Not sure I would call out the use of other preamps as not viable is I did not own them myself. Have you tested these models and have experienced ground to give that advice other than what you have heard of or seen in reviews?

I am not talking shit or degrading you Mack, but if you say things like 'my experience', you come across as no more credible than the guy in the (pick one) video. Show facts and examples. That seems to me the most logical way to back up an opinion.

This is a forum about discussing usage of gear/software and others opinions of them via use of any particular whatever... Opinion is always going to be a big part of what we talk about, but actual usage and facts are what is best given. Your opinions may not be the same as, or as solid as you see them because your experience is not necessarily the same as others in this industry or in a home recording environment. Not everyone has the same needs in their particular situation. Period. Best we can do is use our knowledge to direct others. Hopefully without being arrogant. I have enough of that with singers...


I wondered if I should post this as a PM, but I saw a post in which you publicly assaulted another mod. So I felt fit to post this in public forum as you did.

The unspoken meaning of the TOS is to not be a dick. We spent years making sure we made that clear to past members that are no longer here because they abused the site. All four of us mods here now are devoted to make sure everyone has a voice without feeling like they are cut down for being inexperienced nor those with experience to be cut down by others with more experience. I'm not calling you one, but you seem to be pushing the boundaries of forcing your opinions on others. That is something I personally do not find as a good thing man.

Your input is greatly appreciated. The seeming arrogance is however coming across as unidirectional to me.