Elec. Guitar Micing - Help!

T

timothypberner

New member
Good evening, friends -

I come to you humbly, a noob in desperate need of help with recording - I am the first to admit, I suck at it. I need some guidance.

My brother plays electric guitar (he has 2 rigs - a Fender American Telecaster w/ a Vox AC15, and a Epiphone Les Paul Custom w/ a Marshall JCM 2000), and has asked me to do some recording for him. Eager to give it a go, I picked up an SM57, and positioned it on axis in the center of the cone, on the grillcloth. His tones have been absolutely killer, so I was excited to hear it through my monitors, so I pressed record for a few minutes....... And it sounded like dirt.
Long story short, we have spent many hours using different mics borrowed from friends etc (SM57, SM58, MXL 2003a, Rode NT1a, AKG Perception 100, MXL V67Q), and no matter what mic, what position, what cable, what stand, what interface (which of course means different preamps and converters), I've even used different computers, powerboards and lack thereof, powerpoints, rooms, houses, and it still sounds like absolute poop!

Please help me, this is so embarrassing. I've done every possible thing I can think of or read on the net or watch on youtube, and I am so frustrated. I have had lots of success w/ other instruments so I know I'm not a total hopeless failure and should put it all up on eBay, but I can't get it right.

I've only kept two recordings (even these are some of the better ones) which are on an anonymous soundcloud account for you to check out:
https://soundcloud.com/user-988481022/tele-marshall
https://soundcloud.com/user-988481022/absolutely-disgusting

Thank you so much for reading this! Please help! :(
 
Track 1 sounds ok . Track 2 is really bassy/muddy.
What don't you like about track 1? What tone/sound are you trying get?
Have you tried changing the amp settings like gain etc to see if it will clean up?
 
Have you tried moving the mic around? It takes more than just throwing a mic up. Dead center, on axis is usually not the best place. I don't know what the place for the mic is since I'm not there, but if it takes you half an hour of experimentation, it's worth it. Moving a mic even an inch makes a huge difference. Try on-axis, off-axis, moving it over towards the edge of the speaker, in between, etc....
 
timothypberner said:
His tones have been absolutely killer, so I was excited to hear it through my monitors, so I pressed record for a few minutes....... And it sounded like dirt.
Click to expand...

The old great room tone VS ass recorded tone dilemma. :D

Why don't you describe what YOU don't like about it and what tone YOU are after.
Everyone has different tastes, there is no single guitar tone that works for everything, so if you say what you are after, then some relative guidance can be provided. Also, it's not good to just focus on the individual tone...IOW, what may sound great or ass by itself, sometimes sounds different when you add it to the mix.
 
miroslav said:
The old great room tone VS ass recorded tone dilemma. :D

Why don't you describe what YOU don't like about it and what tone YOU are after.
Everyone has different tastes, there is no single guitar tone that works for everything, so if you say what you are after, then some relative guidance can be provided. Also, it's not good to just focus on the individual tone...IOW, what may sound great or ass by itself, sometimes sounds different when you add it to the mix.
Click to expand...

This ^^^ Mix and live are two different things.
 
I agree with Ido1957. The first clip sounded pretty good to me, the second bassy and muddy. I didn't hear any awful clipping or anything like that on either one. If you don't like the tone you are getting, try the easy fixes first. Play with the knobs on the amp, and move the mic around.

Let me ask this: How are you monitoring as you record? Are you trying to listen through headphones with the amp in the same room? It's very hard to tell what you are getting through the headphones because the sound coming from the amp itself is so loud. There may be ways you can improvise some kind of baffle to reduce some of that sound at the place where you are listening, but the best solution is to get the amp out of the room. If there is any possible way, it's worth it. I put the amp in another room and run a long cable from the guitar under the doors to where the amp is. Adding a pedal with a buffer to the chain helps reduce signal loss. Then I run a long mic cable from the amp back to my "control room." There's a certain amount of running back and forth making adjustments until you get the amp EQ and mic placement right, but at least you can hear in the headphones what you are actually recording.
 
Hey guys,

Thanks for the stacks of replies really quick!
I'm glad we can all agree that one of them is consideraly better than the other.
I have spent such a long time moving the mic (SM57) and have had not so much success. My issue is the harshness - I think its around 3k or something? Is anyone else suffering from that ear-piercing treble? I can't get rid of it no matter what I do. I'm wondering if anyone else has had an issue like this. It has absolutely flawed me, I cannot correct it!
Robus - I've been doing what you're doing with the 'control room'.
 
timothypberner said:
My issue is the harshness - I think its around 3k or something? Is anyone else suffering from that ear-piercing treble? I can't get rid of it no matter what I do. I'm wondering if anyone else has had an issue like this. It has absolutely flawed me, I cannot correct it!
Click to expand...

Is it possible that the harshness is coming from your monitoring system rather than from the recording itself?
 
gecko zzed said:
Is it possible that the harshness is coming from your monitoring system rather than from the recording itself?
Click to expand...

Aha! Good point. I am no judge but clip one sounded ok to me as well (2496 feeding Tannoy 5As) .
Re mic positioning. Buy another 57 (or something else I am sure those here will suggest?) Then you can have two mics at different positions on the cone (but the same distance), run two mono tracks at a time and have an instant A/B comparison..Could save some time (I read a year or so ago about a guy that was trying to make a motorized mic device for just this problem!)

Also, have you tried positioning the mic whilst wearing headphones?

Dave.
 
Nothing spiky at 3kHz in fact there is a dip!

That spectrum is pretty typical "middly-diddly" distorted rock guitar.

Dave.
 

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ecc83 said:
Nothing spiky at 3kHz in fact there is a dip!

That spectrum is pretty typical "middly-diddly" distorted rock guitar.

Dave.
Click to expand...

That was my impression as well. I have no real idea what the OP wants to hear, or what the context is, but I didn't notice anything particularly harsh.
 
As far as my monitoring goes, I've been using Presonus Eris E5's, but have also listened on various pairs of speakers/headphones. Not much improvement... :/

I'll grab another SM57 and have a shot at the A/B idea - it sounds like a good plan. I'll report back soon!

Does no one else hear that harshness, that kind of brittleness? Maybe its just me. I don't know, haha, I just want a good tone. I guess what I really should be asking is, is it just me, or does this sound like absolute crap?

Cheers!
 
I'm not really hearing any harshness either. I think Gecko might be right about your monitoring setup.

My guitar recordings always suck 'cos I can't really crank an amp where I am, so clip one sounded pretty good to me.
I'd be pretty happy with that as a starting point.

I see where you're coming from with the second clip - It's not particularly good but 'disgusting' is a bit strong! :p


A close mic recording will never sound like it does in the room because your ear is never an inch from the grill.
If you want a more realistic sound in that respect, set up a room mic a good few feet back too.
You can blend the two mics to taste afterwards.

Also, try raising the amp up onto a chair or table, or at least lean it an angle so it's projecting up towards your face.
That'll give you a better idea of how it really sounds.
 
I dig that you are not happy, but you have no idea till it is in the context of a mix. The tone on mix one may do the job.

As far as what others have said, mic placement and another mic to capture the room sound. Another thing to consider is the raw emotional and sensory vibe. A monitor is never gonna push the air that a Marshall cabinet will push. It's a huge difference being in a room with it cranking and hearing it on 5 or 6 inch monitors no matter how loud you play it back.

Again, see how your tones fit into the mix.
 
" are you sure, no one hears that anyone harshness but me...? "

I wonder how loud the amp is you are recording and if very, are you trying to reproduce that level in the monitors etc? If so, you can't. Even $5k+ studio monitors can only reach 110 maybe 115dBSPL at a mtr* whereas a pretty puny 15W guitar amp will hit 110dB and anything bigger gets much louder.

The trick (it seems to me) to getting a good recorded rock guitar tone is to reproduce "that" sound but at reasonable levels. All the guys here who know vastly more than I about this matter, I am but a technician, seem to think you are capturing a very fair representation of "a" rock guitar. Therefore it would make sense that your problem is in the repro chain or, more likely, your expectations of it?

Two extremely useful things noob recordists never seem to buy. A digital multimeter and a Sound Level Meter. Very useful versions of both can be had for well under $50 US total.

*It will of course have a vastly wider bandwidth, especially in the bass and much lower distortion. That is where all the power goes.

And! (early, only one cup o Joe so far!) "I'll fix it in the mix" is a VERY dirty word around here but, I seem to recall many peeps saying that a stark, lone guitar never sounds "quite" right but once combined with a bit of bass, chords etc starts to make sense?

Dave.
 
Sorry RFR! We seem to have had similar thoughts at similar times but you beat me to the qwerty.
(not hard these days!)

Dave.
 
^^^ Well it seemd like we are tracking on a similar path.


I recorded this Led Zep tribute band once. They were very good. They had the sound, the look and the gear.

They knew what they were doing.

Anyway, we spent a few weeks tracking an album of original songs. Much time was spent in getting it right. These were a bunch of meticulous guys.

I didnt have a producing role, I just did what I was asked.
The guitar sounds always bugged me, but they were pleased.
Me, I was always wondering how a Les Paul and a Marshall could sound so thin. But they were paying by the hour, daily cash money.

Like I said earlier, these guys knew what they were doing.

When we mixed, it all came together and sounded great. That thin guitar tone blossomed.

Oddly enough, despite being original songs, they couldn't get away from their main influences.

The finished product sounded like it could have been the lost Physical Graffiti takes.
:D

I learned a valuable lesson over those few weeks.

Never trust a soloed track. It always sounds different in the mix.
:D
 
Thanks guys - I'll keep all this in mind. I'll try convince my bro to let me record him a bit more, and I'll be back to let you know how it goes!

Cheers
 
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