Beginner's vocal equipment

R

richy

New member
Hi, and hello! I'm new to the forum and am looking for some advice about acquiring some equipment for my 8 year old daughter. She has vocal lessons but I want her to be able to practice and record at home. Her coach has recommended an SM58 microphone but when I've investigated the other equipment its turned out more expensive that I would like with monitors and audio interface. I'm wandering if there is a cheaper option, perhaps utilising my existing hi-fi AV receiver and speakers? Could I get away with just buying a microphone and audio interface? If so, which ones would you recommend, and what software do I need? I'm a complete newbie so any guidance would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance
 
The vocal coach recommended the SM58 because of many reasons: they are durable (will survive a drop), make a good performance mic, and hold their value.
If your hi-fi has an auxiliary input, then you can run a cable from the audio output of the interface to it.
This would be the least expensive practical interface: Behringer U-Phoria UM2 | Sweetwater
 
I would get a microphone stand, too - one with a boom attachment so it can be adjusted lower for your daughter's height (and hope to grow with her as she continues). Having her hold the mic at this point would be an additional challenge. The mic, cable and stand often are sold as a package for not much more than the microphone itself.
 
Richy;

First question I will ask is this: Is your daughter really serious and committed to singing, do you see her sticking at it long-term? Two or more years?

If you can answer yes to that, then I would strongly suggest you look at purchasing something like the Focusrite Scarlett USB Audio interface 'Studio Pack'. This will give you the audio interface, a pair of headphones (which sound nice!), a CM-25 condenser microphone and all the cables you need to get going. The mic is not as durable as the likes of the Shure SM-58, but as you will be placing it on a mic stand this should not be a problem.

Not sure what country you are in, so I will use Australian dollars as a point of reference. The Focusrite Scarlett Solo "Studio pack" is around $320-350 AUD as a guide.
There is only one caveat with the solo, it has unbalanced (RCA) outputs, so if in the future you decide to upgrade to some monitor, like what I have, the Alesis Elevate 6's which are balanced input, you could have problems with earth-loops. (Before anyone says, yes I know the Elevates have unbalanced RCA in's, but this doesn't stop earth-loops). If you are monitoring via a domestic amp/speakers then this is not going to be an issue for you.

Think of this. Buy the SM-58, the interface, leads, boom stand - this could be in the region of $300 - so for an extra few dollars (with the Scarlett) you will have something that she can use and work with for many years and grow with. For recording software (if you are going computer based recording), then Audacity will fill the bill - it is free! It is also easy to use for recording single tracks at a time. It will also do multi-track for when she gets to that point.

By the way, the SM-58 is a balanced output, so you can not just 'plug it in' to the home stereo - you will need a pre-amp, that's where the audio interface box will come in.

In my mind, I would start with the Focusrite Scarlett Solo studio pack, it will give you all you need, team it with Audacity and you have a pretty neat system. Sadly, I gave my Solo to a mate in the US as I have upgraded to a 2i2, I would have been more than happy to send it to her at no cost.
 
Not wishing to muddy the waters - but I positively would NOT recommend a USB mic. Crank Emu's remarks and recommendation are very valid - many people really love them, but whenever I buy products, I always believe in buying things that can be upgraded, added to and sold on to improve the system. USB mics are one-shot. You cannot, for example, add another to record in stereo, or record singing and an instrument at the same time. The things like gain and quality are fixed in many of these packages so they are just, for me (and maybe not others) too limiting. A 40 year old SM57 or SM58 will still be working and as good as a current new one. USB based systems might not work next year of you upgrade the computer. If you buy a mic and an interface you can upgrade either easily. Some computers just cannot use USB mics without strange whines and data noises while other computers are 100% happy - so it's a gamble.

I have very few absolutes in sound apart from never buy another USB mic. I have a very nice one that worked superbly on Windows XP. It never worked on Windows 7 onwards, and although it worked on my 5 yr old MacBook, it refuses to work on the current one. That's why I won't ever buy any more USB mics. They're OK for podcasters, and people who know they will only ever want ONE microphone.
 
And another point to mention is that 'mic control' is a very very important skill. Meaning that your daughter and every singer ever needs to realize when to pull back from the mic while performing. SM58 is a good choice for this as it will help her to understand why it is necessary to know how to use a mic for her performance. The proximity effect with a dynamic mic will teach her how to get close for those low and quiet notes, and back off for the belted out ones.

Watch any of those TV talent shows and you can tell the difference from most of the kids as opposed to the ones with experience.
 
rob aylestone said:
Not wishing to muddy the waters - but I positively would NOT recommend a USB mic. (Chop) USB mics are one-shot.
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Rob and Richy, the mic that comes with the Focusrite studio pack is definitely not a 'USB Mic', it is a balanced XLR output condenser.

I would never recommend a USB Mic for performance based applications, great for the likes of podcasts and so forth - other than that I am not a fan of USB mics at all.
 
I agree that a USB mic is not a good idea (yes Emu you were NOT suggesting one I know!) but they DO look "simple and attractive" to the noob.

But I am also generally suspicious of "kits"? Often a mix of good'ish stuff and stuff not quite so good that they are having trouble shifting! Also peeps tend to have part of it already. E.g. OP has a hi fi system, probably has some cans?

I too would avoid a capacitor mic, especially for an eight year old girl. Doubt she is a contralto? Cap mics, especially cheap ones can be shrill and a bit harsh in the upper registers (U87 prob' ok!) SM58, perfect. Bog S Behringer? Not so much IMO. Firstly I doubt the gain/noise performance is up to a dynamic and even if the lass IS a belter like Lulu, there will be softer stuff to do.
Then, does she or any other member of the family play* any kind of instrument? If so look for an interface with at least two mic inputs. They also always double as line and instrument (guitar say) inputs. In a word, don't cheap out on the AI, even if she loses interest in a year, you will get 30-50% of the money back on EB.

Yes the hi fi amp and speakers can be used to monitor. Any decent AI will have 1/4" jack outs so you will need jack plugs to RCA cables. Mention was made of "earth aka hum aka ground" loops? The hi fi amp will surely be earthed but if using a laptop on battery there will be no e/g/h/ loop problem. With laptop on charge there might be but K.I.S.Sir for now? Always here!

*If there is a bit of a thought to do so here encourage it and a keyboard is the way to go IMHO. I am a failed guitarists and ex bass player but for a singer, learning "piano" is just about the best thing they can do. I doubt there are ANY classical singers that cannot vamp down the cantina and many more "pop" people can tickle the ivories better than you might know.

Dave.
 
My fault for not reading properly - so apologies for that. Always worth discussing packages though! I think that railway siding of upgradability for anything USB is a real barrier to getting better.
 
Dave;

Agree a lot of kits are a mix of good and junk, and that varies widely. I was surprised with the Focusrite pack, it was pretty good all round. It was actually the headphones I was expecting the worst from, they were a sweet surprise.
As for keyboard - that is a very common thing with vocalists, they all tend to be very good keyboard players. You have touched on a very important and relevant point Dave.

Really at the end of the day it is all going to come down to two things:
1. How much is in the purse.
2. Is the kid likely to stick with it long-term? (If not, then don't shell out a lot of money)

As a alternative to the 58, what are the Beta58's like, are they a cheaper option? I have never heard one so cannot comment on their sound.
 
Cranky Emu said:
Dave;

Agree a lot of kits are a mix of good and junk, and that varies widely. I was surprised with the Focusrite pack, it was pretty good all round. It was actually the headphones I was expecting the worst from, they were a sweet surprise.
As for keyboard - that is a very common thing with vocalists, they all tend to be very good keyboard players. You have touched on a very important and relevant point Dave.

Really at the end of the day it is all going to come down to two things:
1. How much is in the purse.
2. Is the kid likely to stick with it long-term? (If not, then don't shell out a lot of money)

As a alternative to the 58, what are the Beta58's like, are they a cheaper option? I have never heard one so cannot comment on their sound.
Click to expand...

It of course depends upon what a person thinks of "A lot of money" is for them but the fact is, "going cheap" especially for the beginer, can make the recording process more difficult and them more likely to jack.

In the case of microphones there are some very decent dynamics around now less than 1/2 the price of the '58. I have a Prodipe TT1 and HAD an SM57 (son liberated it back to France!) The Prodipe is very similar to the Shure and around £30 here.

But, very cheap, one lunged AIs can be a PITA and have no future proofing.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
It of course depends upon what a person thinks of "A lot of money" is for them but the fact is, "going cheap" especially for the beginer, can make the recording process more difficult and them more likely to jack.
Click to expand...

Everyone seems to be so 'pro' SM58, but there is something a lot are forgetting or maybe they can't pick it up or have never heard it. If you have a vocalist with very strong vocal projection (and yes an 8 year can do this), the diaghphram in a 58 can flatten out. Depending on the vocalist the effect of this can be minor to nasty.

I (personally) would even say a Focusrite 2i2 would be more suitable, as it offers more flexibility. I feel there would be more benefit gained from getting a AI 'studio pack' (AI, Mic, Headphones) then buying separate items. For one it is all there and ready to go. Whatever way they choose to go, I agree with you totally - going cheap is a mistake from the get go.

I have to redact my comments re Audacity, after thinking about this I feel Audacity might be a bit to 'clunky' for a beginner to drive. Something along the lines of OceanAudio recorder/editor might be more appropriate. It does not do multi-track, but it is easy to use, has lots of plugins already built in. Actually the look and feel of it is very 'Audition' like, just minus the multi-track ability and a few other things.
 
Never heard of OceanAudio 'mu' but will check it out. Now, EVERYONE thinks the DAW they use is THE most obviously user friendly! I personally think Samplitude is a doddle but then son and I have been using it for over ten years!

The great thing about Audacity is that is free and very safe to download (see ninite.com). It is also about as easy to use as DAWs ever get which is to say, not much but there are SO many people here and all over the world using Audacity that almost any problem any bod has with it is known to someone and had the ***t beaten out of it already.

Never seen, read or heard of THAT problem with a '58, do you have any factual evidence before Shure* start proceedings for defamatory libel?!

The F'rite 2i2 is a very popular AI I admit. Never quite understood why? Several AS good and cheaper AND with MIDI.

*I seem to recall that the 57/58 series hit 1% THD at around 150dB SPL? That's about a click away from a Saturn lift off.

Dave.
 
I've never had a 57 or a 58 ever have issues with loud singers, lips on the grill - something I doubt is even possible and still have your hearing, and the only thing I can think of would be if the singer had simply terrible technique and it wasn't;t their voice , but powerful P's and B's that go pop - that's not the diaphragm flattening is a blast of air with hard wavefront, and curing that is nothing to do with swapping mics.

Took me a while to find ocenaudio - not ocean audio. The thing really is how dumbed down do you need to go. Hell, windows had a sound recorder for years that recorded and did little else bar some basic functions. My attitude now is that anyone who wants to use computers for audio or video needs to work at the interface and devote time and effort. The simple ones work great for beginners, but how long for? There's also stiction. You get so used to your software you try others and decide they are too hard. They are not, but the users are soft, and confuse the extra feature set with being complicated to work. I convinced myself for years that photoshop was horrible and too complicated and my free Paint Shop pro was equally as good and easier. When I eventually tried photoshop seriously and learned how to work it I realised how stupid my old viewpoint was.
 
ecc83 said:
Never heard of OceanAudio
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My stuffup, it is 'Ocenaudio' not Ocean. It is free also and a very nice little editor. Ocenaudio is not a DAW, it is an audio editor. I was just thinking a DAW might be a bit to much and too confusing for an eight year old.

Never seen, read or heard of THAT problem with a '58, do you have any factual evidence before Shure* start proceedings for defamatory libel?!
Click to expand...
Yes, I've worked with a few singers that do it. Not knocking the 58 at all, they are a great mic, have some myself and pretty much industry standard especially in the live arena.

The F'rite 2i2 is a very popular AI I admit. Never quite understood why?
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The name in part I would say. I haven't got anything bad to say about mine, never had any problems with it. Sure there are cheaper - but as you said cheaper is not always the best option.

Maybe we are banging our heads against the wall here, there has not being any follow-up communication from the OP. Without that and some info on the aspirations and goals of the kid we are really like ducks with their heads cut off.
 
Mike B's post in post #2 pretty much nailed it for what the OP could get on a budget for simply a way to record an 8 year olds progress in her singing. The intent of the OP doesn't sound to be to make a perfectly mastered demo or an album. Additionally he would need some headphones for the daughter to hear a backing track. Not sure the OP was thinking monitors/speakers to have a backing track played along with the singing which would not be the right way to do it. A recording in a DAW can be saved as an mp3 and played back any number ways to just hear a singers progress. I wouldn't try to anticipate the OP's future needs, just get him on a path as a really basic start on few dollars that they could upgrade later is wanted to do so.
 
arcaxis said:
Mike B's post in post #2 pretty much nailed it for what the OP could get on a budget for simply a way to record an 8 year olds progress in her singing. The intent of the OP doesn't sound to be to make a perfectly mastered demo or an album. Additionally he would need some headphones for the daughter to hear a backing track. Not sure the OP was thinking monitors/speakers to have a backing track played along with the singing which would not be the right way to do it. A recording in a DAW can be saved as an mp3 and played back any number ways to just hear a singers progress. I wouldn't try to anticipate the OP's future needs, just get him on a path as a really basic start on few dollars that they could upgrade later is wanted to do so.
Click to expand...

Generally agree there Mark. My meaning was that a newb can start at SUCH a low, basic level that the process is fraught and they soon lose interest. He will get a decent chunk of his money back if it all peters out in 3 months. Call it a rental?

Dave.
 
If the OP is still watching and wants a decent budget mic $29.99........ E-V Co7 MF Stupid Deal (one day only if it doesn't sell out first 1/6/2019).

I bought the E-V Co9 on one of MF deal of the day sales and it's an OK sounding mic with a hot output. The Co7 should be similar I believe. Pair this up with one of Behringer's budget interfaces and he'll be well under a $100 even with the purchase of a good cable. Adding a mic stand might possibly tip it over the $100 mark.

Electro-Voice Co7 | RecordingHacks.com
 
Presonus audio box complete bundle. 299 us dollars. Everything you need at a great price. For 50 us dollars more you will get a fantastic home recording studio complete with monitors , headphones , cables, mic stand , daw software, microphone, can't be beat! Just set up and plug and play. Do a little research and don't think you will find a better value.
 
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