Beginner recording classical solo violin

LOVE to hear something Marco! Can you attach as 320k MP3 please? NOT YT. (fed up trying to sort them *****s out!)

Dave.
 
Aw! C'mon we want 'warts and all'!

Dave.

Hello again!
I am "rendering up" something:

Rode NT55 with cardioid capsules in XY setup
Neumann KM184 (cardioid) in XY setup

Rode NT55 with omni capsules in AB setup (20cm distance)
Neumann KM183 (omni) in AB setup (20cm distance)

No EQ or Effects. The room was sound isolated with a lot of absorbing panels on walls and roof.

In two days I will record again Bach (Chacconne) in the church. I was thinking (as I only have the Rode mics available) to use the RODE NT55 with cardioid caps in XY setup. Do you think is a good idea or shall I give another try to the omni caps in A-B setup?

20200705_124002.jpg20200705_130646.jpg
Will put the link of the video tomorrow morning (now in Sweden is 01:42 am).

Good night!
 
I have never, ever recorded like this. The physics that makes coincident and spaced mic techniques work is their ability to recreate a stereo field in a nice sound space. Your technique is not a stereo one that works well because close in, small movments of the subject result in big changes and the phase cancellation stereo techniques use positively is quite destructive close in. From normal listening distances violins have no width. If it was a guitar, you could use two mics to capture the neck sound and balance it with the rounder mellow sound from the sound hole. In the studio, close in, x/y and a/b don't work very well. The studio in the photos is treated and plenty of treatment mopping up it's negative elements, so techniques that enable recording the room are rather pointless. I've never seen omni mics used in this way in a studio of this type. When you use X/Y, A/B and the other stereo techniques they're not done like this. They are mid to distant stereo techniques used in reverbant, real, spaces and capture sound like our own ears do. There was a test back in the 80s where somebody was recording an animated musician playing clarinet ( or possibly oboe) where the X/Y recording made listeners with headphones vomit! It was shared on the recording circuit and was really well recorded but the performer suddenly moving had a kind of roller coaster effect.
 
Thanks rob!
How would you record the solo violin in a studio like that? I guess stereo setup should be better than mono, no?

Tomorrow I will be at the church and will try to experiment little bit more there. What do you suggest with the RODE NT55 pair as mic setup? I have both Cardioid and Omni capsules available.
 
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Think about what stereo is. If you are in a church with a violin and close your eyes, what do you hear? A point source in a big room! If I want a big distant perspective I'd use a stereo pair at least four metres away, but depending on the church, this might be nice, or horrible. We did a singer in a church yesterday and used two mics a metre away from her, but back in the studio just picked the most flattering one. The stereo pair further back provided the stereo component, which was tweaked to make it sound bigger than it really was. You can record a church organ in stereo because even small ones are physically big. Recording a grand piano, stick up is a compromise for calling it a stereo instrument with width, but once you get smaller than that, the ONLY reason for using two mics is to capture the tonal aspects. Harps often need two mics if you need clarity so do things like bassoons where sound escapes all over the places. If you have percussion, you'd perhaps think times would be stereo, but while you use multiple mics, panning is very, very gentle or your time player grows ten feet long arms. I tend to mic things in a TV style, so a violin would get one condenser probably 2-3 ft away on cardioid higher than the violin aiming down at it in playing position. So much depends on what you want the recording to sound like. Choose between a sound similar to what you hear if you were there, or a studio recording designed to make the violin a focus instrument. For me, it's perspective. Do you want to really hear in your ears that the violin was not central, but to one side, thirty feet away in a space with hard walls,migh roof and lots of air in it, or do you want to hear the violin in full detail, more dry, central and focussed? Stereo techniques in close do neither. I'd use the pair in X/Y, central and maybe 2-3m above ground, with another mic close in at 2-3 ft (sorry for mixed measurements) and blend to taste back in your studio.
 
Think about what stereo is. If you are in a church with a violin and close your eyes, what do you hear? A point source in a big room! If I want a big distant perspective I'd use a stereo pair at least four metres away, but depending on the church, this might be nice, or horrible. We did a singer in a church yesterday and used two mics a metre away from her, but back in the studio just picked the most flattering one. The stereo pair further back provided the stereo component, which was tweaked to make it sound bigger than it really was. You can record a church organ in stereo because even small ones are physically big. Recording a grand piano, stick up is a compromise for calling it a stereo instrument with width, but once you get smaller than that, the ONLY reason for using two mics is to capture the tonal aspects. Harps often need two mics if you need clarity so do things like bassoons where sound escapes all over the places. If you have percussion, you'd perhaps think times would be stereo, but while you use multiple mics, panning is very, very gentle or your time player grows ten feet long arms. I tend to mic things in a TV style, so a violin would get one condenser probably 2-3 ft away on cardioid higher than the violin aiming down at it in playing position. So much depends on what you want the recording to sound like. Choose between a sound similar to what you hear if you were there, or a studio recording designed to make the violin a focus instrument. For me, it's perspective. Do you want to really hear in your ears that the violin was not central, but to one side, thirty feet away in a space with hard walls,migh roof and lots of air in it, or do you want to hear the violin in full detail, more dry, central and focussed? Stereo techniques in close do neither. I'd use the pair in X/Y, central and maybe 2-3m above ground, with another mic close in at 2-3 ft (sorry for mixed measurements) and blend to taste back in your studio.

I have done a new recording in the church, both technique: AB spaced pair setup (omni) and XY (cardioid).
I like more the AB setup. XY sounds a bit boring and less "natural" in my opinion.

Here the recording: St.PetryKyrka_day2_ABsetup_1.mp4 - Google Drive
 
My first impression listening on headphones (K92) was that the violin was rather 'strident' even spiky at times and I put that down to the microphones or the acoustic or a bit of both.

However moving to my Tannoy 5A setup changed my mind completely! Yes, the violin was 'crisp' and clear but that stridency had gone. The stereo image was also excellent IMHO. I could close my eyes and picture a violin a few meters behind my speakers and of the natural, almost point source it would be in reality.

Some might find there to be too much 'church' and certainly for anything much faster or intricate the notes might get lost in the reverberation but for me it was glorious.

Better ears than mine might still find things a bit 'bright' or hard and perhaps a few curtains or duvets could be put about?

Dave.
 
You can hear the influence of the room with the recording in the church, and how important the room is in allowing the violin's sound to develop.

If you have no choice abourt where you record, and where you record is not the most violin-friendly room, you may have to add effects to achive depth.


In the attached sample, the violin was recorded with just one microphone (Audio Technica 853) which was placed above the violin, about half a metre from the bridge.

The full track is in this video (the violin starts about 25 seconds in):

 

Attachments

  • TDOF Sample.mp3
    2.2 MB · Views: 75
My first impression listening on headphones (K92) was that the violin was rather 'strident' even spiky at times and I put that down to the microphones or the acoustic or a bit of both.

However moving to my Tannoy 5A setup changed my mind completely! Yes, the violin was 'crisp' and clear but that stridency had gone. The stereo image was also excellent IMHO. I could close my eyes and picture a violin a few meters behind my speakers and of the natural, almost point source it would be in reality.

Some might find there to be too much 'church' and certainly for anything much faster or intricate the notes might get lost in the reverberation but for me it was glorious.

Better ears than mine might still find things a bit 'bright' or hard and perhaps a few curtains or duvets could be put about?

Dave.

Hi Dave and thanks for your analysis.
the NT55 is a bright mic, indeed. I would love a parif of DPA5011 but, so far, out of budget!
 
Hi Dave and thanks for your analysis.
the NT55 is a bright mic, indeed. I would love a parif of DPA5011 but, so far, out of budget!

You are most welcome but "Analysis"? Bit of a posh term for the efforts of a deaf old valve amp tech with some pretty middle of the road kit!

Dave.
 
The imaging was good, but I wonder if a M/S would be a better method with it giving the violin a nicely centered image but with the church space being picked up by the side address mike.
 
The snag here is goal seeking. What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve? Are you hoping to record the sound of a space with a violin annoying it, or are you trying to record a violin with an annoying space intruding? Or somewhere between. Are you trying to record what somebody in the front row would hear, or someone at the back (or somewhere between). It's signal to noise really, but your aim is a little different to what the big classical recording companies or broadcasters would choose.

There's nothing wrong with your omni recording apart from that it's not similar to other recordings of this genre. Technically, the recording is competent. Aurally, for me the cardioid wins but the violin seems mobile and wide. Recording with two mics is very difficult, but you are persisting with your quest, and don't seem willing to try alternatives. If you listen to classical recordings, do you hear recordings like yours? They're just a bit unconventional. It's often fruitless to ask the musicians, they hear things differently to the audience, especially brass players. One tip. Press the mono button on your recordings, this might demonstrate that your distant techniques are tricky used close in.

The M/S suggestion for you would be a really good one. The ability to change perspective afterwards.

You might actually like spaced A/B as it has a huge sound, have you tried this?

As I also do video work, I've got a little violin lyre that allows me to mount a small omni on a violin, and blending this with a distant stereo array used conventionally can work brilliantly.

Your X/Y array in the video is it crossed? It looks spaced, so is really A/B with less rear? It's rather unusual. You have sort of invented a new technique?
 
The snag here is goal seeking. What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve? Are you hoping to record the sound of a space with a violin annoying it, or are you trying to record a violin with an annoying space intruding? Or somewhere between. Are you trying to record what somebody in the front row would hear, or someone at the back (or somewhere between). It's signal to noise really, but your aim is a little different to what the big classical recording companies or broadcasters would choose.

There's nothing wrong with your omni recording apart from that it's not similar to other recordings of this genre. Technically, the recording is competent. Aurally, for me the cardioid wins but the violin seems mobile and wide. Recording with two mics is very difficult, but you are persisting with your quest, and don't seem willing to try alternatives. If you listen to classical recordings, do you hear recordings like yours? They're just a bit unconventional. It's often fruitless to ask the musicians, they hear things differently to the audience, especially brass players. One tip. Press the mono button on your recordings, this might demonstrate that your distant techniques are tricky used close in.

The M/S suggestion for you would be a really good one. The ability to change perspective afterwards.

You might actually like spaced A/B as it has a huge sound, have you tried this?

As I also do video work, I've got a little violin lyre that allows me to mount a small omni on a violin, and blending this with a distant stereo array used conventionally can work brilliantly.

Your X/Y array in the video is it crossed? It looks spaced, so is really A/B with less rear? It's rather unusual. You have sort of invented a new technique?

Hi again Rob.
The Adagio e Fuga was recorded with AB setup 200mm from each other (parallel mics on a stereo bar) with omni caps.
The Ciaccona was recorded with coincident XY setup (90 degrees angle) with cardioid caps.

When you talk about Apaced A/B do you mean to increase the distance from the mics?
 
I am with Rob here. The recordings are very good and I find them very pleasant to listen to (but then I am a Bach nut!) but they are not, as it were 'Commercial'. As Rob says "what is the desired end result"?

I hesitate to suggest even more work for you but perhaps a single mic close to the instrument and another several mtrs into the body of the church? Then attach two discrete MP3 and let Rob and the other top chaps here have a crack at balancing them?

(If that has all been suggested before I'll get me coat)

Dave.
 
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