Band self recording, mixing and mastering

Lonewolf14

New member
Hello,

First of all, glad to find the forums and have the posibility of getting feedback from experienced people all over the world.
I'm from Argentina and i'm guitarist of a garage band, "Sale Circus". I've setup a home studio where we are attempting to record our first demo album. But i'm also intrested in getting experience for both recording and producing music.

My setup is very cheep. probably the cheepest you can get. My limited mic choises are 3 caroid dynamic mics of diferent brands (Parker, JTS and other), a JTS kick drum mic and a small condenser mic. (neewer Nw800). All with XLR/XLR cable.
The recording interface is a behringer umc404hd and as DAW 'm using Acid Pro, just because i allready had it. But also have pro tools first installed.

I've started mixing some takes and i'm hitting a wall when it comes to the final sound of the songs. For some reason the mixes and mesterings end up with good clarity but sounding like it's far behind the speakers. Specially the drum.
I did comit an error on micing the drums cause instead of using a snare close mic, i put the condenser mic avobe the kick drum near the snare in the hopes of getting more body for the drum kit. But in result i got a distant snare sound.
You may wonder why didn't i mic the snare too. But the interface has only 4 channels. so the overheads are in stereo 1/2, 3 for the kick and 4 the condenser mic. We will re take the trackings using a close snare mic but i'm not sure if that is the point of the matter.

This is the resulting sound of the drums for a song called "Llaves" with some editing. I actually ended removing all reverb from the tracks in the mix.

see links below

But still, even with all other instruments added, the result sound has the feel of "farness" and it laks the punch of the music that makes you feel it. Wich is a shame because the band live has a lot of power and specially punch. But i haven't been able to capture it.

This is the best that i could get out of mixing and mastering

see links below

Very much a wip in terms of musical arrengments and performance. (we are amateurs with very limited time for getting all 4 together)
But i'm not sure what could be the cause of this results. Ofcourse my first conclusion would be cheep mics. But i'm starting to doubt if the problem could be elsewhere.
Anyway, any feedback would be much apreciate. Probably many been where i am before.
I would like to determine if it's a gear issue, a recording issue or a post edition issue.

Thanks in advance, Gabriel.
 
The forum doesn't let you post links until you've posted something like five or ten times. It's to prevent spammers. Join a couple of conversations and pretty soon you'll have enough posts to add links. Also, there's a built-in mp3 upload function that might be the best way to post samples.
 
Thanks! will use that function as soon as i'm able. I pasted the urls in case still want to take a hear. if still wrong i remove them. swear no spam :)
 
Okay, I hear a couple of problems. First is that you've mastered this to an insanely high average level. My LUFS meter says it's -5dB LUFS integrated. One of the results is that when something tries to get louder the other things drop in volume a bit (pumping).

Second, you've got the guitars mixed on top of the drums. That's probably a big part of why the drums don't seem right to you. To me, it sounds like it was mixed by a guitar player.

Try starting the mix with just the vocal, kick and snare. Then add the other instruments being careful not to bury those three basic elements.
 
haha, you are right. it's mixed by the guitarrist. But i never would have thought of that. So do you think that the drum recording is not a an issue?
I will aprouch the mix as you suggested. I do have some strugle with getting the right levels for the guitar and bass. When i think the guitar is low, it ends poping up when mastering anyway. Sometimes happen the same with the bass.
Will back down in the limiter gain.
 
Something about the snare does sound like it's recorded in a bare room with a fair bit of reflection, but that's not the most pressing issue. Once you get things balanced out it will be easier to tell if the drum sound works.
 
Allright, just re mixed the faders only. This is the mix with out any plugin at the master bus or post mastering.
View attachment Llaves_mix_1.mp3

maybe kick drum is too loud? i read somewhere that you have to push the kick until the uv meter is about -3db and then add the bass until it's slightly above the kick level. and them mix from there. but it sound kinda loud. is that aprouch correct?
 
Allright, just re mixed the faders only. This is the mix with out any plugin at the master bus or post mastering.
View attachment 104912

maybe kick drum is too loud? i read somewhere that you have to push the kick until the uv meter is about -3db and then add the bass until it's slightly above the kick level. and them mix from there. but it sound kinda loud. is that aprouch correct?

Any numerical reference has to be a rough guide, at best.
You can't really stick to a rule like that because your kick could be all thud, or really clicky, or anything in between,
and those various options are going to peak higher/lower than the others with the the equal perceived volume.

Generally I just try to make sure that everything is recorded such that the signal is clean and clear and well above any noise floor, but well clear of clipping,
then use the faders to mix everything together, making sure everything plays together well, with the master staying well clear of clipping.

If you got your drums jiving nice then you introduce bass and the master peaks, everything comes down. (+rinse+repeat).

If you get that going on and the whole thing sounds good but just seems to quiet, then you're into dynamic compression.
 
For some reason the mixes and mesterings end up with good clarity but sounding like it's far behind the speakers. Specially the drum.
I did comit an error on micing the drums cause instead of using a snare close mic, i put the condenser mic avobe the kick drum near the snare in the hopes of getting more body for the drum kit. But in result i got a distant snare sound.


I hear what you're describing. The drums do sound like they were miked from across the room.
They're lacking fullness and strength but, hey, you worked within your limitations and did what you had to do. :)

I think it works for the track, though. You've got a sort of thrashy lo-fi thing going on.
Personally I'd want to get some thud out of that kick. I don't know if it's there to be eqd or not...If not I would consider triggering samples for the kick drum.

In a perfect world I'd have a different snare sound too but I think if the kick had some balls that'd make the biggest difference.
 
I agree, don't worry about the numbers too much. Just avoid letting peaks reach 0dBFS.

In general that new mix would need more low end in the drums and bass, and more guitar. But that's a very general response to a mix I know wasn't intended to be a finished product.

The snare does sound distant. I think you may need to re-record the drums to get a beefier sound.
 
Thanks to both for the reply. It allready helped a lot to have a fresh perspective. I'm aware that getting to a profesional sounding record in short experience and low budget it's almost imposible if possible at all. But i do want to reach the limit with what we got before i consider spending serius money on gear if that would make a big diference. I just want to have more precense in the tracks.
I will re-track the drums next session using all close up mics. maybe the overheads pointing at the cymbals with lower volume, instead of aiming for the snare. That may help with the room issue, right?

Will work in the low end of this session in the meantime. any tips for the low end of things?

Thanks again for the tips!
 
One thing you can do on this forum is learn about 4-mic drum recording techniques. The two to start with are recorderman and Glyn Johns.
 
You should be able to trigger samples, as suggested, to bring the kick and snare a bit closer to what you want, but I think next time you'll want to get those tracked a bit better. You could try to trigger off the snare as you have it, filtering for some frequency, or dup the track, serious EQ and gate and let that trigger.

Attached is something I did that shows I usually do acoustic guitar tracks :). But, I think you can hear the triggered kick, at least.
 

Attachments

  • homerecarg1.mp3
    6.4 MB · Views: 9
Ohh, that's a big difference allready! the bottom end has punch now. And the snare does sound better. Did you eq too?
What plugin do you recomend to replace the kick?
So i should have samples inserted in a parallel track?
Definetely will do both, re-track and use samples

Thanks!
 
Ohh, that's a big difference allready! the bottom end has punch now. And the snare does sound better. Did you eq too?
What plugin do you recomend to replace the kick?
So i should have samples inserted in a parallel track?
Definetely will do both, re-track and use samples

Thanks!
I use Logic Pro X and it has a "Replace or Double Drum Track" menu item. Then I just scrolled through some sets that were part of EZDrummer for something that sounded Ok. Going back and looking now (I might have broken one of my internet rules last night...), I did try a snare replacement but it's not very accurate because it really needs a mic'd snare to work well. That feature in Logic allows you to add or replace a track, but I couldn't replace since the original was the stereo mix, so it's a parallel/added track.

And, there's a bit of low shelf lift around 170Hz and a wide bell up at 3.6kHz. And some more limiting - pretty sausage-like when I look at it :).
 
I use Logic Pro X and it has a "Replace or Double Drum Track" menu item. Then I just scrolled through some sets that were part of EZDrummer for something that sounded Ok. Going back and looking now (I might have broken one of my internet rules last night...), I did try a snare replacement but it's not very accurate because it really needs a mic'd snare to work well. That feature in Logic allows you to add or replace a track, but I couldn't replace since the original was the stereo mix, so it's a parallel/added track.

And, there's a bit of low shelf lift around 170Hz and a wide bell up at 3.6kHz. And some more limiting - pretty sausage-like when I look at it :).

What internet rule did you broke? if you refer to messing with my audio, i'm more than happy with it :)
This particular song is the test subject for the hole process. The band songs are slightly diferent in style. More zeppelini'sh
But in other songs the snare issue is more evident.
 
= Glad I didn't do any harm ;)

No harm at all. All the contrary
I've been doing some test with adding samples to the kick and the snare. And it works, kinda. But then i realize that the overheads catch too much room. and also bleed from the instruments. But i do feel like not only the drum mics sound thin, but also the instruments. So i was wondering. Do i need some device (preamp or something like that maybe like the "behringer mic800") to have a better signal on the input? or is it the same to then adjus the gain of the recorder signal?
Shall mics go trough some sort of analog preamp stage?
Right now feeling like even tho i re track the drum with better micing technique, it might end not beeing enough for the hole mix. since both bass and guitars also have that "distant"feel to it. Every descent recording have all it's part right in you face, except for vintage bands.
Any sugestions there?

Thanks!
 
You don't need any preamps at this point. IMO, your problem is you are trying to record a band with only 4 inputs, and that's only possible if you track drums separately (limited to 4 mics), guitar and bass - maybe even those need to be done separately, and then vocals.

The problem is not the preamps, but mic placement and how you are recording, IMO. (A preamp isn't going to change how the mic behaves if you place it far enough from the source it's picking up too much room. You fix the room or move the mic.)

All at once, I have done 2 guitars, bass, 2 vocals and drums (3 mics) with 8 channels. It's ok for a demo, but you really need more. I did a band with one more guitar and vocal and used up 11 tracks - should have been 12 but I ran out of mics then (since corrected and added to checklist). But, I am able to go to 16 tracks now (this is my mobile stuff, not at home), which are pretty easy to consume if you want the most flexibility in mixing. Using a track to trigger a snare pretty much requires a mic on the snare, same for the kick, though it's a little easier to pick out if you have a drum mix like you posted.

I'd consider trying to get a scratch rhythm down, maybe with one rhythm guitar (amp mic'd), bass direct and 2 mics on the drums, or if you think you want to get the bass final, DI and cabinet, and a single mic pointed at the drums. Then, go back and re-track the drums with 4 mics. Then, add guitars, and finally vocals. Or something like that. (The Behri does not have ADAT input so you can't expand it cheaply.)

Good luck. I think you have a pretty good sound for a first pass at this, and if you're trying for a kind of demo or something, throw some pictures into a video slideshow and folks won't be listening that closely :).
 
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