Real VIOLIN for Austin, Texas male artist.

studioviols

studioviols

New member
I'm pitching to an Austin, Texas artist, and that would be Adam Stewart at http://www.adammstewart.com .

I've downloaded one of his best MP3 mixes at 160kbps and then recorded some violin tracks and then remixed and converted to 192kbps. It's not going to stream, if you will critique for me, then please download.

'Today is Real'

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=3196&alid=-1

It's a 7.49MB download, and I had to save it at 192kbps to preserve the mids and highs in the violin, and the underlying mix which was already compressed once.

It's his vocal and acoustic Taylor guitar, and my violin.

I am MOSTLY CONCERNED with the mix level of the violin and the PANNING and STEREO PLACEMENT of the violin.

This is one of the first stereo mixes that I have crafted, and I'm concerned I abused that.

All comments are welcome, please observe the character limit :D
 
Pat,

Some very tasteful stuff there!

Mix and level wise, I think your part is coming in about about a db or two too hot in the mix when the vocals are playing. They should be behind him, supporting the melody as apposed to fighting him for space as parts of it appear right at this moment.

The doubled parts you did as well could stand some smoothing out as it sounds like like there are some sync issues between them and the flow of the guitar's rhythmic flow.

It might be best to just play your counter melodic lines when there is no vocals happening in the song as you were doing in spots from the second verse onward. In those places, your part complimented the composition greatly.

The tone as well was wonderful and smooth through out.

I continue to be impressed with your many talents!

Cheers! :)
 
Clean as a whistle - this tune is so exposed you had to play smack on the pitch and beat - well done!! Damn this is raw - nowhere to hide anything!! I think 'where' you played was fine - just slightly off to the side. The level is fine but you might drop it just a tad during the vocal. I don't think it's too loud but it would serve more as a trade-off as to who has the melody. Harmonies were nice. I think I covered all your concerns - and you need not have any. Nice work!!
~Milan
Nilpferd Arschloch
 
very cool strings added......i like them a lot....they add good emotion to the song.......

i'm listening on computer speakers, so i don't want to make any big comments on the mix, but it sounds good on my end....
 
Good stuff. What a great melodic hook that you came up with.

I agree with what Ghost said concerning you being just a hair too loud during the vocal part but other than that, sounds great to me.
 
sounds good to me sv. i like it a lot. but that's my kind of arrangement. a guy his guitar and a violin player. very nice.
 
The balance and pan seem fine. The dynamics are fairly large and I would probably reel them in with some subtle compression or a limiter. This is especially prominent on the low end of the guitar around 100-150Hz and the voice around 2-2.5KHz.

Really nice tune and vocal performance.
 
beautiful additions.. I have mixed feelings about the violin levels.. it may be loud, but I like it there... maybe drop it down a hair in the vocal parts.. that acoustic gets pretty boomy.. one nit.. why did you stop @3:15? it seems like something is missing until the vocals start again.. I would have kept it going until 3:28.. nice work Mr.V!
 
This is a beautiful piece of work by Adam Stewart and you. I'd have to agree with one of the comments noted above about the violin being too hot while Adam is singing (except where Adam is "memory"). I'd keep the level where the the violin is soloing.

The backing on the last chorus is absolutely brill!!!!

So, I'd tweak the levels a bit, but outside of that, it's pretty cool! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said :
-----------------------------
... about a db or two too hot ... when the vocals are playing ... should be behind him, supporting the melody as opposed to fighting him for space as parts of it appear right at this moment.
-----------------------------

And I'm hoping this response and other's like it are born out of my strong concern for these issues I stress when reviewing others. It's medicine I've brewed that I need a sip of, and I thanky for that kindly. Never take the chance of stepping on their part unless they ask for more. Too little is always the best formula in the initial presentation. If they have nothing to ask for ... then why might they need you ?

If I remix this I am thinking I would pull the levels of the violin to nearly inaudible in the first chorus. Pan them out just a touch further in the second chorus but the same volume level, and in the third chorus, as the material is now well presented twice before, join with his singing at a higher level and closer to 'center stage', for a more instrument rich ending, like Phoolan Devi enjoyed.

The Ghost of FM continued with :
-------------------------------------------
... doubled parts ... smoothing out ... sync issues ... guitar's rhythmic flow.

... counter melodic lines ... when there is no vocal ... as you were doing in spots from the second verse onward.
-------------------------------------------

After seeing Adam's classified advertisement in the Austin Chronicle, I phoned Adam in Austin to determine where we were on some issues. He told me that he wanted to have the opportunity to step out of the formal structure of the songs for live improvisation with the ensemble. I sensed he wanted a free interpretation in this initial presentation, so, I took some risk early on with counter melody based on the first few notes he sings in the song.

In reflection, I think my first entrance should be just after the first chorus when I present that first short motif at 01:06 ... that is based on the first few notes of his lyric, to remind the listener of Adam's initial feeling that he '... (does) not want to hear (her) ... and that's what that violin melodic hook is all about throughout the song.

My overdubbing needs more crafting in the submix with tighter fade-in/fade-out, and I think I'll run each of those places where I overdub the violin for more of a 'section sound', I'll run those through the soundforge smooth-enhance, with a 2 degree smoothing, and mix a dry with a wet submix.

Sync issues with the guitar are again, all about a looser arrangment in this first presentation with respect to presenting ideas for live improvisation. I don't think this was done to a click track, so the only way to really 'play together' is rehearsal and performance time.

I consider this a first rehearsal for Adam and I, the second if that occurs will be a remix, or even a retracking based on Adam's comments.

MC Gitarz sagt :
---------------------
... this tune is so exposed ... play smack on the pitch and beat ... Damn this is raw... level ... might drop it just a tad during the vocal ...
---------------------
Yes, Adam is completely exposed in this tune, and I wanted a fairly strong presentation on the violin as I thought the amount of opportunity justified that. Yes, I'm going to drop levels or cut the early parts, and join more in the choruses and present ideas that might be interpreted as challenging the vocal only later in the song. The solos and cameo sections could be strengthed as a result of that.

Powederfinger said :
---------------------------
... they add good emotion to the song ... i'm listening on computer speakers ... it sounds good on my end .
---------------------------
Excellent, I pulled off a decent computer speaker mix ! Adam is singing about real things that happened in his life, I am convinced of this after working with the song and studying it carefully. If one musician is working from sincerity, I pick up on it and then I'm willing to dredge some horrible pain up and bring it into my mind's eye as I'm playing. I lost a woman I loved to cancer, and I was thinking about her as I recorded most of this track, she's in the song now. Using issues like that helps to heal the wounds.

DrummChris said :
--------------------------
What a great melodic hook that you came up with. I agree with what Ghost said concerning you being just a hair too loud during the vocal part.
________________
Actually, I just took material from Adam that he presents in the very first few notes of the lyric, and worked with that improvisationally to develop the parts. I wanted to maintain some continuity, while presenting some motion to Adam that might seem more flowing and more free.

Yes, I'm going to address the mix with special consideration for those times that the violin is playing while the vocal is being presented.

erichenryus said :
-----------------------
... a guy his guitar and a violin player ...
-----------------------
Well, you are 'Not Alone' in that feeling as I am collaborating with another artist who wants 'a guy, his guitar, and a cello player' :D ... and then a whole bloomin' string orchestra ! Thanks for the listening mate.

Middleman :
-----------------------
... subtle compression ... low end of the guitar around 100-150Hz and the voice around 2-2.5KHz ...

Really nice tune and vocal performance.
-----------------------
I think this is one of Adam's best, it's very real life, very sincere. Are there 'notch compressors' ? Can you compress only within a certain frequency range ? Or does compression by it's very nature only address those frequency ranges that pop up with 'to much dynamic' ?

B. SABBATH said :
-----------------------
... why did you stop @3:15 ... I would have kept it going until 3:28 ...
-----------------------
Thanks for the time markers in your listening. I felt it was a risk to present the violin in the context of that section. It would have to be a big contrast as he modulates quite distantly there. I would have had to present another 'violin character'.

I felt I would have to do something very, very different on the violin there to fit in ... I would have to break character on the violin, and I wanted the violin to remain in it's singular character so that part of the song would retain it's strong contrast, it's a good break for the listener to reflect on their own.

Also, Adam has the opportunity now to ask for something there, and who knows, maybe that's the ONLY place I should be playing ;) .


Phoolan Devi said :
-------------------------
The backing on the last chorus is absolutely brill!!!!
-------------------------
Yes, I'm really happy with it, and I think it works so well, because the lyric material has been firmly presented to the listener twice already, all the more reason to drop it out of the first chorus. Thanks for the listen.

======================

Thanks to all of the http://www.homerecording.com MP3 Clinic member responses and the time you take to listen to, and respond to your contemporaries here. This board rocks !

Thanks to Adam for sharing this part of his life so we can all participate in that.
 
The Ghost of FM said :
-----------------------------
... about a db or two too hot ... when the vocals are playing ... should be behind him, supporting the melody as opposed to fighting him for space as parts of it appear right at this moment.
-----------------------------
And I'm hoping this response and other's like it are born out of my strong concern for these issues I stress when reviewing others. It's medicine I've brewed that I need a sip of, and I thanky for that kindly. Never take the chance of stepping on their part unless they ask for more. Too little is always the best formula in the initial presentation. If they have nothing to ask for ... then why might they need you ?

If I remix this I am thinking I would pull the levels of the violin to nearly inaudible in the first chorus. Pan them out just a touch further in the second chorus but the same volume level, and in the third chorus, as the material is now well presented twice before, join with his singing at a higher level and closer to 'center stage', for a more instrument rich ending, like Phoolan Devi enjoyed.

The Ghost of FM continued with :
-------------------------------------------
... doubled parts ... smoothing out ... sync issues ... guitar's rhythmic flow.

... counter melodic lines ... when there is no vocal ... as you were doing in spots from the second verse onward.
-------------------------------------------
After seeing Adam's classified advertisement in the Austin Chronicle, I phoned Adam in Austin to determine where we were on some issues. He told me that he wanted to have the opportunity to step out of the formal structure of the songs for live improvisation with the ensemble. I sensed he wanted a free interpretation in this initial presentation, so, I took some risk early on with counter melody based on the first few notes he sings in the song.

In reflection, I think my first entrance should be just after the first chorus when I present that first short motif at 01:06 ... that is based on the first few notes of his lyric, to remind the listener of Adam's initial feeling that he '... (does) not want to hear (her) ... and that's what that violin melodic hook is all about throughout the song.

My overdubbing needs more crafting in the submix with tighter fade-in/fade-out, and I think I'll run each of those places where I overdub the violin for more of a 'section sound', I'll run those through the soundforge smooth-enhance, with a 2 degree smoothing, and mix a dry with a wet submix.

Sync issues with the guitar are again, all about a looser arrangment in this first presentation with respect to presenting ideas for live improvisation. I don't think this was done to a click track, so the only way to really 'play together' is rehearsal and performance time.

I consider this a first rehearsal for Adam and I, the second if that occurs will be a remix, or even a retracking based on Adam's comments.


MC Gitarz sagt :
---------------------
... this tune is so exposed ... play smack on the pitch and beat ... Damn this is raw... level ... might drop it just a tad during the vocal ...
---------------------
Yes, Adam is completely exposed in this tune, and I wanted a fairly strong presentation on the violin as I thought the amount of opportunity justified that. Yes, I'm going to drop levels or cut the early parts, and join more in the choruses and present ideas that might be interpreted as challenging the vocal only later in the song. The solos and cameo sections could be strengthed as a result of that.


Powederfinger said :
---------------------------
... they add good emotion to the song ... i'm listening on computer speakers ... it sounds good on my end .
---------------------------
Excellent, I pulled off a decent computer speaker mix ! Adam is singing about real things that happened in his life, I am convinced of this after working with the song and studying it carefully. If one musician is working from sincerity, I pick up on it and then I'm willing to dredge some horrible pain up and bring it into my mind's eye as I'm playing. I lost a woman I loved to cancer, and I was thinking about her as I recorded most of this track, she's in the song now. Using issues like that helps to heal the wounds.


DrummChris said :
--------------------------
What a great melodic hook that you came up with. I agree with what Ghost said concerning you being just a hair too loud during the vocal part.
________________
Actually, I just took material from Adam that he presents in the very first few notes of the lyric, and worked with that improvisationally to develop the parts. I wanted to maintain some continuity, while presenting some motion to Adam that might seem more flowing and more free.

Yes, I'm going to address the mix with special consideration for those times that the violin is playing while the vocal is being presented.


erichenryus said :
-----------------------
... a guy his guitar and a violin player ...
-----------------------
Well, you are 'Not Alone' in that feeling as I am collaborating with another artist who wants 'a guy, his guitar, and a cello player' :D ... and then a whole bloomin' string orchestra ! Thanks for the listening mate.


Middleman :
-----------------------
... subtle compression ... low end of the guitar around 100-150Hz and the voice around 2-2.5KHz ...

Really nice tune and vocal performance.
-----------------------
I think this is one of Adam's best, it's very real life, very sincere. Are there 'notch compressors' ? Can you compress only within a certain frequency range ? Or does compression by it's very nature only address those frequency ranges that pop up with 'to much dynamic' ?


B. SABBATH said :
-----------------------
... why did you stop @3:15 ... I would have kept it going until 3:28 ...
-----------------------
Thanks for the time markers in your listening. I felt it was a risk to present the violin in the context of that section. It would have to be a big contrast as he modulates quite distantly there. I would have had to present another 'violin character'.

I felt I would have to do something very, very different on the violin there to fit in ... I would have to break character on the violin, and I wanted the violin to remain in it's singular character so that part of the song would retain it's strong contrast, it's a good break for the listener to reflect on their own.

Also, Adam has the opportunity now to ask for something there, and who knows, maybe that's the ONLY place I should be playing ;) .


Phoolan Devi said :
-------------------------
The backing on the last chorus is absolutely brill!!!!
-------------------------
Yes, I'm really happy with it, and I think it works so well, because the lyric material has been firmly presented to the listener twice already, all the more reason to drop it out of the first chorus. Thanks for the listen.

======================

Thanks to all of the http://www.homerecording.com MP3 Clinic member responses and the time you take to listen to, and respond to your contemporaries here. This board rocks !

Thanks to Adam for sharing this part of his life so we can all participate in that.
 
I think this is one of Adam's best, it's very real life, very sincere. Are there 'notch compressors' ? Can you compress only within a certain frequency range ? Or does compression by it's very nature only address those frequency ranges that pop up with 'to much dynamic' ?
Click to expand...

A multiband compressor can be tuned to specific frequency ranges.
 
I like your stringed parts a lot, but I couldn't stand parts of Adam's work... guitar's boomy, loses the rhythm a couple times/sloppy... chord progression doesn't make a lot of sense after about 3:00... and I really didn't care about anything he was singing as the key words I caught/understood were trite/typical... only positive thing was his voice (which is very good).

The violins are at a good level, I wouldn't change the levels at all, especially since the violin becomes the centerpiece now :).
 
Hi Studio...
Adam's voice has a Nick Drake kind of quality to it...I like it a lot.....however,...the levels of the vox fluctuate in this mix....they are cool until he get's into the chorus,....I do like the dynamic of his vox....it's just the levels there that get a bit too loud...hard on the ears....ya know?
Your violin part is awesome and mixed very well...
His guit is a bit choppy...I would like to hear a fuller warmer sound from the guit...and a better performance there as well.......


Good luck with your pitch man,
Joe
 
Hi Pat,

Sorry I couldn't jump in sooner here - weekend stuff and all.

First, I'm sorry to learn that a loved one succumed to cancer. Drawing from such a loss through your music is probably among the best therapy you could do. I've not walked in those exact shoes, but I know the power of my instrument has helped me through other rough times. She is indeed a part of the song now. Well stated!

Anyway, I think the song is strong and the violin work really helps the cohesion of the piece. A 5-1/2 minute song with minimal instrumentation is tough to pull off.

I think it's a fine recording - although it does bug me a bit that some of the guitar rhythms are not square. As you said, a click track was probably not used, so your chore was made that much more challenging. Good work!

The levels suited me fine too (both through PC speakers and my monitors) - but being another fiddler I might be biased there. Ha! Seriously, I wouldn't pull your levels down much because it might just end up sounding like an afterthought - almost a "what...what is that going on ?" type of thing. Your part essentially makes the song a duet of sorts - a conversation even - and both parts should be heard...so personally, I wouldn't change it too much.

What would it sound like with the lyrics in French?...maybe add a light accordian bed here and there too?...It has a Euro quality to me (funny, I've never been there), but certainly flies fine as is.

Nice work - to you and Adam!

Good luck with the project!

Brad
 
the fiddle is too hot in many places...especially where singing is present. For all the high bit rates you use, the overall mix is way too sibilant and it "appears" you can hear the sound effects of noise reduction and mp3 encoding...but that is probably beyond your control and doesn't probably concern you too much at this point anyway. Just wanted to mention it though.

the part you are playing fits well with the music, but after a minute or so, I found it to be repetitive. The sound you captured on your violin is nice, however...better than the rest of the recording. I question a little bit about the rhythmic quality around the 1:35 mark where you do a little "interlude solo". Seems to be "off" just the tiniest bit. I backed it up and listened to that area again, and agree with my first impression. I did like it when you took it up an octave in a couple places (the sustained whole note stuff). Almost had a synth like quality to it then.

Overall I would back the violin down about 25% thru the whole song.

Kinda a weird middle section, harmonically...

I found the song was also very linear.... no buildup, etc...except who it seemed to "wind down" towards the end. The double tracked violins was "strange and new" at this point. how come only there??

Hopefully, when adding a part like yours, you could accentuate parts of the song, and help break up the "staight line" feel of the song. Give it high points...low points. I think the immense use of the 1/8th note feel in your part didn't help, but kept the violin part on a similar level thruout the whole song too, and therefore only served to just add another instrument, rather than an embellishment.

You sound like a gifted player, and have a good ear. Take this up a couple notches and make your Texas boy say; "I can't believe you made my song sound like this...this is incredible!!!" then you'll get their attention without worries.
 
The violin is too loud in many places IMO. Some other spots it is very nice. Plus, due to multiple reasons, it is not sitting right IMO. I think it could use more verb to match what is going on with the guitar and vocals. Plus, Adam's part has now been encoded twice which I think accounts for a lot of the sonic differences a things not sitting right. That may be the real problem IMO.

I really enjoyed your part. Emotionally it added a ton! I would have loved to have heard a cello option too. A - because I love the cello. B - because I feel it may sit better with the vocals.

Nice work Studio! Good luck with the pitch!

PS - Our next project might have some room for some wonderful strings. I will PM when it is up on the board for review and get your thoughts. It's a sad slow/song which always calls for strings. :)

Todd
 
Middleman said :
--------------------
... multiband compressor ...
--------------------
Now there is a tool I am seriously going to research.


Pinky said :
--------------------
only positive thing was his voice (which is very good)
--------------------
Yes, his voice is very good :D



Joro said :
--------------------
Adam's voice has a Nick Drake kind of quality to it ... the levels of the vox fluctuate in this mix ... I do like the dynamic of his vox ... it's just the levels there that get a bit too loud ...
--------------------
The difference between 'volume level' and the 'dynamics' of a performance are very, very good points of discussion here. I suspect there was little compression on the vox going in, and I think there may be some mic proximity techniques that contribute to this.

I will have to get hold of some Nick Drake and compare those mixes. I think it's always a great idea to find voice types like the one you are mixing, and see how others successfully, or unsuccessfully mixed that vox type.

--------------------
For gascap :
--------------------
What you have said in your review is very, very close to what the 'violinist' who tracked and mixed this was saying to himself. It's amazing how like instrument people think alike in the mix ... and that's a tribute to both of us ! :D . Thanks for grieving with me, and sharing your experience with that from your instrument's point of view. Listening to this mix helps me release her ... into the song.

The whole issue of click track or not here, is a live performance issue. If I am to play with this guy live, we would not have a click track, so this is an excellent way to rehearse. I know very well how he plays off of a click. The primary intention here was to present an arrangement that was easily 'doable' in a live sit'chayshun.

Thanks for the double listen through PC speakers and monitors.

Yes, you are biased ... and in a fine, fine way :D ! I will step into that bias and agree whole-heartedly that it is a conversation, and I am in agreement with Adam, echoing the first few notes of his melody in the hook I develop. If the woman I lost called on the phone, I don't think I would want to hear her, we were estranged for about a year, after being together for 12 years when cancer took her very suddenly. There's a lot of strong and conflicting emotion that surrounds all of that.

The song would probably work very, very well in french ... now you'll have me toiling with a translator and pitching his song to a bunch of heartbroken frenchies ! :D


--------------------
mixmkr said :
--------------------
the fiddle is too hot in many places...especially where singing is present ... I found it to be repetitive ... a synth like quality to it then ... The double tracked violins was "strange and new" at this point. how come only there ...
--------------------

Your take on the volume level definitely goes into the next mix equation with respect to avoiding challenging the singing.

I did want my hook to be repetitive, it's a theme and variation on the initial few notes of the lyric. As the song is rather linear as you mention, (and that can be so typical of a vocal and acoustic guitar only ballad), I wanted to draw the listener constantly back to his first statement.

Adam is in shock in this song, he's having difficulty believeing and confronting the loss, so my hook reminds the listener of that constantly also. Rather than stand out in this initial presentation to Adam, I wanted to support.

That the strings sound synth like in anyway is scary, I will strive to avoid that. I record that whole note 30 times and select the perfect ones, and that could be why it sounds synthy, also, I forgot to alternate the polarity of each of those tracks when I mixed down, so there could be some artifact due to phasing there, good call.

I used the double tracked violin only later, to reinforce and 'make different' the seemingly repetitive hook I had developed, also, I wanted Adam to have the opportunity to hear a more 'section sound' in one of his pieces of music. And this could be reproduced live, by punching in a chorus effect at that point on the violin.


skids said :
--------------------
The violin is too loud in many places IMO ... I think it could use more verb to match what is going on with the guitar and vocals ... have heard a cello option too ...
-----------------------

Yup, the more I listen to this mix, the drier the violin sounds, I think it could benifit mightily from a touch more verb, and a touch more delay. I think I unconciously prefer to make an initial presentation too dry, so I have the flexibility to add, it's like 'headroom' for effects. Also, if you hear it too dry the first time, there is no question I am playing in tune, and with good ensemble, so adding more verb after establishing that is more than acceptable.

The violin could actually be mixed with a WHOLE lot more verb and distance, and any volume level issues would be much less as verb is added.

The cello option was the big controversy here. The violin worked well to 'agree' in conversation with Adam. The cello I think could represent that strength that carries us through situations like this, and it was a tough decision on which instrument to go with.

Violin is also more 'pop', and I wanted to make my first presentation to Adam on the instrument that is simply more recognizable in a mix.

I did not track both instruments because I wanted Adam to be reassured that this could be done live with no problem. This song certainly gives me the opportunity to craft an arrangement that would allow me to switch instruments during a performance and use both live.

Can't wait for the 'sad and slow' offering, I'll be listening for string opportunities when I review, thanks for the head up.

==================
I really, really appreciate these thoughtful reviews by everyone.

All of this helps me tremendously in making decisions, and I think everyone has a lot of understanding here as to my limitiations in a 'first pitch' to a band or artist where I must be tasteful. I think I'm doing a better job of balancing my expressive and creative goals ... with a professional approach ... in these matters as a result of participating on this board.

And I would be the first to admit that I am the most conservative ear in my own work.

Please do understand as I become involved in collaborations, that if you want an upfront, flashy part, ask and yee shall recieve. :D

Thanks again to everyone for listening.
 
Pretty nicely recorded violin. No recording or mix comments...

A couple of alternative suggestions on arrangement...

Much of the string part shares a lot of space with the vocal - and overtakes it in spots. I wonder what it would sound like if you recorded a "harmony" part to what you have. You'd then be able to pull both tracks back just a bit and still have them do their job. An EQ cut or two might help (hey wait, I said no mix comments didn't I!!!)

Or... what I'd do... is record the two part fiddle thing, but make it an octave above where you have it. I think it would sound a little sweeter and accent the song a little better. You'd be "out of the way" of the singer and guitar, but still contribute to the song.

Oh and of course double track everything :D.

Not sure about the performance through the 1:30's. Doesn't seem to flow as well as it does elsewhere. Again from 3:08-3:12.
 
I really like the song, I found the violin a little loud in certain parts, but I really like the singer's voice. Cool tune, may be in need of an edit.
 
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