And now, for something completely different...

dafduc

dafduc

New member
Here's a hymn I wrote for Good Friday a couple of years back. The tune is "Danny Boy" (public domain - keeping it all legal, Waldo!!), which has already been borrowed over the centuries for a few hymns, including one on a similar topic. Text is my copyright, 2001.

Anyhow, we were going to keep it a capella and segue into Song Eighteen at the end, but one night I was feeling adventurous - so I worked up a kind of cinematic soundscape approach to this. I thought I was kind of on to something new, but my niece says it's reminiscent of what they did to "Enchanted Boy" in Moulin Rouge.

Whatever. I'm kind of pleased with it, and now I'm uncertain whether the a capella version or the cinematic version should lead off the album (we're expecting sales in the dozens!!!).

So, fellas (and both you girls;) ), tell me what you think:
King O'er the Hills

Caroline used an MK-319. The soundscape was all loop wrangling, except some synth work (Greenoak Crystal & GakStoar Alpha VSTi's) in the second refrain The hifi streaming audio sounds muffled compared to the mp3, so if you can download the mp3, that would be better.

I'm aware of some problems, but not sure how much of an issue they'd be for listeners, so I won't give 'em up yet, lest the topic skew in that direction.

Thanks in advance.

Jay
 
Well, I seem to have made it down to page two with no responses.

Maybe I should clarify - if it was ONLY a hymn, I probably wouldn't ask you to listen, except maybe to help with miking or EQ problems. What I'd like feedback from you on is the cinematic stuff I did - drone beds, sound effects, tone clustering, etc.

**I** thought it was pretty cool. The singer SAID she thought it sounded cool, but she always tells me what she thinks I want to hear. The guys in my band (who aren't involved in this project) listened tonight, and said something like:

Dan: "It's, um, really interesting, Jay."
Carl: "Yeah, interesting, that's it."

Sheesh.

I'm sure you guys know how hard it is figuring out whether your creations are any good - they're like our kids, we love them, we bury countless hours into them, we want everyone to love them as much as we do. So **I** can't be objective about them - I need you to be.

If it's a stupid idea to do this to a song, tell me so. If the idea's okay but I'm screwing it up somehow, tell me so, and how you'd fix it. Please.

Thanks, you guys.

Jay
 
Hadn't seen this one yet. When I saw the Python-esque title I had to check it out.:D

I'm a big fan of dissonance, but this isn't working for me. I think it distracts from her voice. Too much contrast.

I like the ambient sounds like the rain, etc.
 
M.Brane said:
I'm a big fan of dissonance, but this isn't working for me. I think it distracts from her voice. Too much contrast.
Click to expand...

Thx, M.

Yeah, I made a bunch of changes to the second refrain to try to make it different from the first one, think I may have cluttered it up too much.

Was it just the refrains that were too dissonant, or were verses 2-3 (with the chant drone) not working either?

And did you listen all the way to the end? The dissonances are gone in the last refrain. 'Course, if everyone tunes it out before they get there, it won't matter much.

I appreciate the input.

Anyone else?
 
The mix: You hafta do something about the sibilance on the vocal. Also, sometimes I can't hear what she's singing because it gets lost, not just because the level of the music's a bit high, but because it runs counter to the melody and makes it more difficult to hear. I know you're proud of the synth stuff LOL but turn it down in places. LOL

The lyrics: I don't think love limps to defeat. Not real love.

'Love longs for what's sweet'
'Love's tears do entreat'

The song: it's great. The music surges slowly along behind the vocal, like waves rolling up on a beach, matching it roughly, or like wind gusting up in a high place. One reason I like it is because it reminds me of bits of Infrared Roses by the Grateful Dead. They did it weirder than you, I imagine more drugs were involved, but just like this one, a truly weird approach has these moments of real beauty if you do things right. It's gonna weed people out on the first listening, right? Never mind. It's like meditation - the longer you listen to it, the more sense it makes. It's got beauty, but it's not pretty. I have no idea what he felt at the end, but I hope to fuck it wasn't the way the music in this makes me feel. It's so desolate. I hope he was too occupied with dealing with the moment to feel that desolate. I hope this is more about you than him. :) I can see how the strong, gentle beauty of the melody moving through its changes set against that musical backdrop of dire skies tells the story. But for some reason, this focusses my attention on the background more than the melody. Maybe try lowering the level on the synth bits. Dunno. I'm groping.
 
Thanks dobro!

Yeah, I've already decided to drop the beds for refrains 1 & 2 way back. Thanks for confirming. And I'll check the vocs again - I didn't notice sibilance, but my ears are not what they were.

As for The "mood" thing - the last refrain moves away from dissonance, into minor key consonance, and the whole piece ends with 3 hits on the major tonic ... not sure what else I can do to convey a "happy ending". Also, remember this is Lent / Good Friday thing - can't be getting too happy! We give that up for Lent.:rolleyes:

Here's the thought process behind "Love limps":
Christ's final walk to Calvary was along the path that all "criminals" had to take to get there. Children are conceived in joy and love, we parents do our best to raise them, and watching that product of our love take one last painful walk to an untimely and sorrowful end - deserved? maybe - law mimics justice, it doesn't always provide it - is, in a manner of speaking, an ultimate and final defeat.

For every living soul who walked that first century version of "The Green Mile", love DID limp toward defeat. Except Jesus. The line was describing nature of their green mile. One of the things Christ overcame, once you get to the three final chords.

Thanks again for your encouraging words.

Jay
 
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.... I don't know?

I don't think I'm qualified to critique it.

Joe
 
Thx, groove. I'm thinking if I let the vocs overshadow the track some more, the dissonance won't be quite so hard-to-take (though that's kinda what I'm going for).

I appreciate the input. Still not hearing the sibilance though. Curse these ears - ruined by years of loud rock and roll...
 
Smokepole said:
[B
I don't think I'm qualified to critique it.

[/B]
Click to expand...

I am:D

Your dissonance doesnt make any sense, it sounds like you dont know the basic rules. There has to be a basic structure, or else it will sound like... well, it will sound like this. This is not groundbreaking, it is really nothing.

It COULD work, just get an idea first.
 
I dont see how the concept can work with music.Music is built upon the concept of being harmonious,not inharmonious.:rolleyes:
 
that was an interesting listen.. I liked it a lot..

I'm not trying to take a shot at you or anything, but this sounds pretty evil for a hymn.. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure you'll get a positive reaction from an average listener..

It all depends on whether or not you care what people think.. If you do, change it. If you don't, I liked it!
 
Kramer said:
Yes.It's in "Ave Maria" and it's not so enigmatic that it becomes inharmonius.:)
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on how far outside the box your willing to go with it, and how much of a dose you can take.;)

Was it just the refrains that were too dissonant, or were verses 2-3 (with the chant drone) not working either?
Click to expand...

I think DavidK said it better above.;)

And did you listen all the way to the end? The dissonances are gone in the last refrain.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I rode it out and it did come back a bit.

'Course, if everyone tunes it out before they get there, it won't matter much.
Click to expand...

That's the trade-off when you do something like this. How willing are you to lose the listener for the sake of art?

Always a tough question.:eek:
 
DavidK said:
I am:D

Your dissonance doesnt make any sense, it sounds like you dont know the basic rules. There has to be a basic structure, or else it will sound like... well, it will sound like this. This is not groundbreaking, it is really nothing.

It COULD work, just get an idea first.
Click to expand...

Basic rules I got. Advanced ones might be a bit beyond me.

Anyhow, here's the basic structure:

Drone in.
V1: major scale melody, no harmony, non-tonal ambience (storm);

C1: major scale melody, Vm11 drone (with shifting extensions and inversions);

V2: major scale melody, Hungarian scale chant underneath (but dropped 6ths and 7ths don't coincide with melody's natural 6ths or 7ths), ambience (um, "carpentry");

C2: major scale melody, Vm11 drone repeats, joined by Victimae Paschalae Laudes chant in relative minor key (with maj10th and min6th parallels) on VSTi synths;

V3: major scale melody, Hungarian scale chant underneath repeats, ambience (bells);

C3 major scale melody, mostly relative minor triads (VIm, IIm, Vmaj), bells continue;

Tag: major scale melody, same mostly relative minor triads, bells continue, then a capella at fermata, ends with tonic triad and bells.

C1 is harsh, but needs to be, C2 is cacophonous, but needs to be. OTOH, I do need to pull the beds back, so that the text isn't hidden, and VPL gets heard without shrieking.

I also sense that there isn't enough movement under C1, and am trying to come up with something that will keep the tension but give me some forward motion. I'm actually using about 6 different loops there, but they're all a bit too similar, harmonically. Maybe a good bass line under C1 would fix it?

Don't know. I'll play with it more.:)
 
I smoked a phat bowl and listened...



...now I'm checking the closets and the lock on the back door...





...Did you hear that?
 
In my hurry to answer DavidK last night, I forgot to thank the rest of you for your input., Sorry.

Kramer: I appreciate your "inharmonious" feedback.

There was a time, up through the early Renaissance, where no dissonance was allowed - the practice of musica ficta required the performer to substitute a raised tone if playing as written would produce a flatted fifth, for example. Later Renaissance works (e.g., Palestrina) and most Baroque material (Bach, Vivaldi, Handel) included dissonances (dominant 7ths, b9ths, etc.), but required that they resolve quickly. Classical (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven) allowed the dissonances to remain longer, at least in part because harmonic movement was slower. By the Romantic period (Berlioz, Liszt, Schumann), dissonances could last a whole movement before resolving...

...and that's what's happening here. Strong dissonances on the first two refrains, and just enough dissonance in verses 2 & 3 to give you a continued sense of unease. It resolves in the final refrain to a minor key lament (still under a melody that we're used to hearing in a major key - one of the cool things about using a melody everyone knows already), that finally resolves to a major key at the end.

Pop music doesn't make much use of extended dissonance, but movie music does. So it shouldn't sound completely strange to your ears, though it could make you feel strange - that's what dissonances are supposed to do. A century of film composers can't be wrong!:p

B. Sabbath: Thank you! You appear to be in the distinct minority of people who like this. I wouldn't say church music should be "evil", nor do I think this is, but there's way more to being Christian than "Happy happy joy joy", and Good Friday is kind of the culmination of our sorrows. We had parishioners weep openly when Caroline sang this unaccompanied last year. We're called to carry Christ's cross, few of us anymore really ever deal with anything near that painful - so here's a musical view of that sorrow. It's supposed to help deepen our understanding of Christ's sacrifice.

M. Brane Thanks for posting back. How willing am I to lose a listener for the sake of art? Well, it's art with a message - if I can get the message and keep the sense of foreboding and NOT lose the listener, that would be better. But I'm not willing to soft-peddle the message, either. So, you're right, it's a tradeoff.

W.I.S.C.: Thanks for the laugh. ;)

Daf
 
Your response to me brought me back to my conservatory days!!

Our Friend Roel is going to the conservatory, we had many long emails on this stuff.

IMHO, your reply said it all: It is clinical, which is what I hated about conservatory.

Musically, it doesnt work for me. I personally like the dissonance, but if you dont have a recognizable form, it is not dissonant, it is borderline atonal. Check out some of Schonbergs versions of the Blue Danube, where he puts in a lot of blue notes.

The problem I have is that this is a well-known tune. I like jazzing up tunes, but I need more of the basic chordal structure FIRST, and then you can go to town with all the hocus-pocus.

Thanx for posting something different, I like having discussions on this level.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top