Music to Murder - Insolence and Wine (Don't Make Me Run)

[kindafishy]

Another song from Music to Murder that we humbly ask for your feedback on. Funky and sleazy like the last one I posted here (and thanks again for the help on that one). Sadly, no wah this time .

Much like the last song, and like all of our songs, the production duties and decisions are shared and I am pushing the (virtual) faders around. Two sets of ears and opinions driving.

As before, all comments are welcome. Good, bad, indifferent, anything. Nothing is off limits. Whatever it takes to serve the song.

Need to rest my ears for a couple days on this. Do you deal with the issue of a song becoming so familiar that your brain sorts out things that need to be adjusted so you miss them? I wonder if folks who do this for a living still need this sort of critical feedback, or if they get so good that they just know when it is done.

Anyway, right. The song.

https://app.box.com/s/2p7wvelyhil89vazxuktooorsi79ho6j

Thanks for the listen and any thought or opinion that you choose to share .

 

[BroKen_H]

Snare tone is fat, but sounds muffled right at the very beginning (I know it's a quiet roll, just needs to brighter right at the moment). Kick KICKS! Great bass tone. Love SOME O' DAT! Tasty guitar stroking. Nice stereo field on the vocals. There's a really distorted guitar tone on the that's overbearing...too much (not too loud, too distorted). Cool song!

 

[mjbphotos]

I don't know if it's the distortion on the main lead guitar (probably) but it seems to be cutting into the vocal space when both are going on, maybe because it's panned center. At around 2:30 I heard a part that seemed to be a double of the bass line with a ton of fuzz, don't think that was needed at all at that point of the song. And there's a couple of points where the distorted guitar is almost noodling along and distracting from what's really going on (for example - at the end, around 3:40)

 

[kindafishy]

Snare tone is fat, but sounds muffled right at the very beginning (I know it's a quiet roll, just needs to brighter right at the moment). Kick KICKS! Great bass tone. Love SOME O' DAT! Tasty guitar stroking. Nice stereo field on the vocals. There's a really distorted guitar tone on the that's overbearing...too much (not too loud, too distorted). Cool song!

Thanks H! Yay on the bass tone! I have struggled like crazy with bass for a very, very long time so it is beyond awesome to see an opinion like that . Appreciate the kind words and the detailed observations.

Are you talking about just that first little snare roll before everything starts (and not really any other spots)? I can add some top end in that spot. Throughout the tune, I generally feel good about the snare tone, but I can imagine brightening up that first little bit for sure. Is this what you are thinking?


"distorted guitar tone on the that's overbearing"

On what? Which one?!? You're killing me!

There are a couple guitar parts that you could be referring to, but you've left me hanging here .

 

[kindafishy]

I don't know if it's the distortion on the main lead guitar (probably) but it seems to be cutting into the vocal space when both are going on, maybe because it's panned center. At around 2:30 I heard a part that seemed to be a double of the bass line with a ton of fuzz, don't think that was needed at all at that point of the song. And there's a couple of points where the distorted guitar is almost noodling along and distracting from what's really going on (for example - at the end, around 3:40)

Cheers, Mike, thanks for checking it out. Great feedback.

Yeah, for sure both this song and the last one I posted feature some pretty busy guitars that compete with the vocals (they are not supposed to "compete", they are supposed to provide interesting and playful counter-melody). I always want the vocals to win, without question, but I always want the guitar to be "there" and "present" so that it does grab at the listeners attention here and there. I certainly don't want it to be centre stage though. I'm so close to both the guitar and the vocals/lyrics right now that my brain is having no issue keeping them clean and separate from each other. Would you suggest that I bring the guitar level down/EQ some brightness away in general, or would you think that I could spend some time automating or ducking it just so that the vocals are always the focus? I will say that in general I like the guitar tone. I suppose it's my decision, but I would love a little more advice/input here if possible.

Around 2:30, are you talking about the guitar that is more high gain than any of the others in the song that does is doing the toggled bit? Mmmmmmm, I really like that song element, myself. I think it adds a different texture to the song that is pretty cool and unexpected. We're open to thoughts and opinions on this, of course, but Sam and I both really like it. Is it more of a subjective thing you think? One of those things that some people will dig and others not so much?

And at 3:40, that little ad-lib lick was just something that ended up in a track in the recording session and I liked it as a "spur of the moment kind of character bit".

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative! I'm certainly not trying to be. Your observations are great. I'm just discussing them further with you because we (obviously) like all of those elements otherwise they wouldn't be in there, although, you DID talk us into removing the Who bit from the intro to our other song and that was a good call.

Our songs, for the most part, should hopefully come across as jammy and spontaneous, because much of the recording is just exactly that. Riff out until something sounds sweet and then hit record. It's part of our "thing" for better or for worse. Many song elements are results of just being creative in the studio. You will find that same sort of vibe in our other songs as I continue to post them. We definitely don't want "clean, modern, super tight, clinical Nickelback/Three Days Grace/Chris Lord Algae, carefully planned out and executed note for note kind of style" sounding productions. Yuck (IMO). Quite the opposite. This is us just being honest and free for what it's worth.

THAT being said, it's all about serving the song in the most compelling way we can within our abilities, so we are definitely open to anything.

 

[BroKen_H]

Yes just the first snare roll. It's not awful, mind you, just think it could do with just a tweak of high shelf.
I think the guitar is the same one that Mike was talking about @ 2:30 right after the first insolence and wine. I was going to say doubling the bass, but typed on and lost my train of thought and then finished. (I must be getting old, my train of thought runs off the tracks on occasion).

 

[BroKen_H]

I think it just has too much distortion/fuzz for the sound of the song. I think that's what Mike said, too.

 

[rayc]

U agree about the main guitar tone - too bright, too distorted & even then it doesn't sound natural. Is it a FX pedal into the amp or a sim?
It isn't loud but it stomps all over everything.
Search for one of Whitestrat's tunes in the clinic and try for his tone - it'd suit better.
Currently it sounds like an attempt at funk metal that misses.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

Pretty good mix overall. When things start to get busy, some major voices get a little buried though.

Especially, when the vocals first come in; they're pretty hidden by the distorted guitar. And around 1:30-2:00 when there are a lot of vocal parts going, it's hard to parse any of them, and the kick feels a little lost.

This is one of those rare instances where I like the production more than the songwriting. You've got a lot of interesting complexity going on here; unfortunately, bluesy rock isn't really my jam.

 

[kindafishy]

Yes just the first snare roll. It's not awful, mind you, just think it could do with just a tweak of high shelf.
I think the guitar is the same one that Mike was talking about @ 2:30 right after the first insolence and wine. I was going to say doubling the bass, but typed on and lost my train of thought and then finished. (I must be getting old, my train of thought runs off the tracks on occasion).

I think it just has too much distortion/fuzz for the sound of the song. I think that's what Mike said, too.

Got it (snare). I'm down with that. I'll brighten up that first bit.

Understood on the higher gain guitar. Okay, Sam and I will discuss this to see what option we like here. There is no dry track of this guitar to reamp with a lower gain setting. Is there such a thing as a VST or other audio process that can remove some of the distortion from a tone? I suspect that this is akin to trying to unscramble eggs after they have already been cooked. I tried to poke around google a bit, but I am getting hits on removing general recording distortion and such, not specifically guitar distortion/gain type of thing. Perhaps if I send this out through my amp with a very clean setting and really crank up the power amp, it will come across a little less distorted and I can record that back in? I can do some experimenting.

 

[kindafishy]

U agree about the main guitar tone - too bright, too distorted & even then it doesn't sound natural. Is it a FX pedal into the amp or a sim?
It isn't loud but it stomps all over everything.
Search for one of Whitestrat's tunes in the clinic and try for his tone - it'd suit better.
Currently it sounds like an attempt at funk metal that misses.

No FX pedal. No amp sim. It is all amp overdrive recorded with a 57. The guitar is a tele, which of course, is naturally pretty bright and bitey.

I looked for a couple of WhiteStrat's posts and at first came across some 80's sounding metal tunes which I don't think you were referring to - but then I found this -> https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/mp3-mixing-clinic/oldie-but-goodie-369219 - which features what I think of as being a 'creamy' tone. That is quite the opposite of my intention, which was 'aggressive bite', however I am definitely open to considering this. I can certainly imagine a lower gain/duller tone for the main guitar. I might get some time this weekend to experiment with some different tones. I do have the dry track.

Thanks!

 

[kindafishy]

Pretty good mix overall. When things start to get busy, some major voices get a little buried though.

Especially, when the vocals first come in; they're pretty hidden by the distorted guitar. And around 1:30-2:00 when there are a lot of vocal parts going, it's hard to parse any of them, and the kick feels a little lost.

This is one of those rare instances where I like the production more than the songwriting. You've got a lot of interesting complexity going on here; unfortunately, bluesy rock isn't really my jam.

Hey, taste is taste. That this isn't your preferred genre, yet you graciously gave it a critical listen and left your thoughts is appreciated very much, VHS. It's clear to me from everyone's feedback so far that I need to revisit the choices I made with the main guitar. Thank you very much .

 

[mjbphotos]

Cheers, Mike, thanks for checking it out. Great feedback.

Yeah, for sure both this song and the last one I posted feature some pretty busy guitars that compete with the vocals (they are not supposed to "compete", they are supposed to provide interesting and playful counter-melody). I always want the vocals to win, without question, but I always want the guitar to be "there" and "present" so that it does grab at the listeners attention here and there. I certainly don't want it to be centre stage though. I'm so close to both the guitar and the vocals/lyrics right now that my brain is having no issue keeping them clean and separate from each other. Would you suggest that I bring the guitar level down/EQ some brightness away in general, or would you think that I could spend some time automating or ducking it just so that the vocals are always the focus? I will say that in general I like the guitar tone. I suppose it's my decision, but I would love a little more advice/input here if possible.

Around 2:30, are you talking about the guitar that is more high gain than any of the others in the song that does is doing the toggled bit? Mmmmmmm, I really like that song element, myself. I think it adds a different texture to the song that is pretty cool and unexpected. We're open to thoughts and opinions on this, of course, but Sam and I both really like it. Is it more of a subjective thing you think? One of those things that some people will dig and others not so much?

And at 3:40, that little ad-lib lick was just something that ended up in a track in the recording session and I liked it as a "spur of the moment kind of character bit".

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative! I'm certainly not trying to be. Your observations are great. I'm just discussing them further with you because we (obviously) like all of those elements otherwise they wouldn't be in there, although, you DID talk us into removing the Who bit from the intro to our other song and that was a good call.

Our songs, for the most part, should hopefully come across as jammy and spontaneous, because much of the recording is just exactly that. Riff out until something sounds sweet and then hit record. It's part of our "thing" for better or for worse. Many song elements are results of just being creative in the studio. You will find that same sort of vibe in our other songs as I continue to post them. We definitely don't want "clean, modern, super tight, clinical Nickelback/Three Days Grace/Chris Lord Algae, carefully planned out and executed note for note kind of style" sounding productions. Yuck (IMO). Quite the opposite. This is us just being honest and free for what it's worth.

THAT being said, it's all about serving the song in the most compelling way we can within our abilities, so we are definitely open to anything.

If everyone only liked (and created) the same songs/sounds it sure would get boring quickly! I guess you could try dialing back just a little of the lead guitar's brightness, as well as lowering its volume a bit - not sure ducking to the lead vocal would be needed. You could also pan it just a few percent to separate it a little.

 

[heatmiser]

I think the vocals could come up some at least at the very beginning. It's cool when there's panned vocal tracks later on, even though I'm not necessarily picking up on the lyrics any more at that stage, but sonically, it fits better. At the very beginning when the vocals first come in, they get covered up by the guitar I think, and that's the only chance to make a first impression .

Bass sounds pretty cool. Actually, guitar, bass and drums sound pretty locked in throughout, maybe just a tad heavy on the guitars, but they sound good. Lots of different sounds introduced throughout which was cool.

 

[kindafishy]

New mix with adjustments made based on HR feedback.

Changes:
- Reduced the upper mids in the main guitar track. It's still aggressive enough for how I 'envision' it, but it is not anywhere near as bright and bitey as it was. I kept the same level of gain/distortion though. I've decided that I like it this way and it serves the mix how I want it to.
- Removed the high gain toggle guitar. I originally liked the contrast with a completely 'foreign' sounding guitar part, and I do miss it, but the song still works without it, so we are okay with it gone.
- Brightened up just the initial snare roll. Subtle change, but I like it.


The link in the first post points to the updated mix, but for convenience, here it is -> https://app.box.com/s/2p7wvelyhil89vazxuktooorsi79ho6j

Thanks again guys!

If everyone only liked (and created) the same songs/sounds it sure would get boring quickly! I guess you could try dialing back just a little of the lead guitar's brightness, as well as lowering its volume a bit - not sure ducking to the lead vocal would be needed. You could also pan it just a few percent to separate it a little.

Indeed! I adjusted the brightness and didn't get into any ducking as I didn't feel that it needed it once I did that. I think it has made a positive difference, but we'll see what you guys think!

I think the vocals could come up some at least at the very beginning. It's cool when there's panned vocal tracks later on, even though I'm not necessarily picking up on the lyrics any more at that stage, but sonically, it fits better. At the very beginning when the vocals first come in, they get covered up by the guitar I think, and that's the only chance to make a first impression .

Bass sounds pretty cool. Actually, guitar, bass and drums sound pretty locked in throughout, maybe just a tad heavy on the guitars, but they sound good. Lots of different sounds introduced throughout which was cool.

Thanks heat!

With the guitar having an adjustment downward in the upper mids, I think the vocals are working much better. Before doing so, the guitars would sometimes mask the vocals, but now every time they are sounding out together, the vocals mask out the guitar and they come out on top. You were right on top of that though, and I put the vocals up a little bit across the board, but even a bit more for the very first area where they come in. Thanks for the compliments on the tones. I hope the guitars give the impression of dropping in a little better with everything else after the EQ adjustment.

 

[Mr Clean]

I think it sound pretty good. The main guitar could come down and the vocals up a touch. I'm struggling to decipher the lyrics in places, especially during the first 2 minutes of the piece.

Great playing and capture. I really like the bass line. Some good funk in there.

I liked it overall, just needs a bit of tweaking here and there.

 

[kindafishy]

I think it sound pretty good. The main guitar could come down and the vocals up a touch. I'm struggling to decipher the lyrics in places, especially during the first 2 minutes of the piece.

Great playing and capture. I really like the bass line. Some good funk in there.

I liked it overall, just needs a bit of tweaking here and there.

Thanks for the listen and the kind words .

Got it. There are a couple more things I'd like to do with this track before putting it to bed so I will see if I can push the vocs up just a touch more without having them sound too loud on any of the systems I am listening back on. Right now on my main system the lead vocals are borderline too loud, so I don't have too much more room to push them up. I'll see what I can do though.

 

[dobro]

Another song from Music to Murder that we humbly ask for your feedback on. Funky and sleazy like the last one I posted here (and thanks again for the help on that one). Sadly, no wah this time .

Much like the last song, and like all of our songs, the production duties and decisions are shared and I am pushing the (virtual) faders around. Two sets of ears and opinions driving.

As before, all comments are welcome. Good, bad, indifferent, anything. Nothing is off limits. Whatever it takes to serve the song.

Need to rest my ears for a couple days on this. Do you deal with the issue of a song becoming so familiar that your brain sorts out things that need to be adjusted so you miss them? I wonder if folks who do this for a living still need this sort of critical feedback, or if they get so good that they just know when it is done.

Anyway, right. The song.

https://app.box.com/s/2p7wvelyhil89vazxuktooorsi79ho6j

Thanks for the listen and any thought or opinion that you choose to share .

Everything in the verses is running right up the middle in the first part of the song. When the drums aren't hitting cymbals, there's no difference between mono monitoring and stereo monitoring - they're identical. One effect of piling everything on top of everything else is that the vocal's getting masked by the guitar a little. Later on, you widen the stereo spread with the outlier bvs and guitar work (and by the end of the song, everything's opened up wonderfully), but it would be great if you could just nudge stuff left and right a bit in the verses to get just a taste more separation. EQ's right, space is right, drums sound good. It's that overlap in the first part, though... listen to around 1.08 - 1.11...what are the lyrics? Dunno. Can't make 'em out. But I should be able to, right?

I get by with insolence and wine. Indeed. Make it shine.

Two last things, and the first is more important: this one sounds good, it s-o-u-n-d-s good, sonically pleasing. Finally, I really like it. Done good.

 

[kindafishy]

Everything in the verses is running right up the middle in the first part of the song. When the drums aren't hitting cymbals, there's no difference between mono monitoring and stereo monitoring - they're identical. One effect of piling everything on top of everything else is that the vocal's getting masked by the guitar a little. Later on, you widen the stereo spread with the outlier bvs and guitar work (and by the end of the song, everything's opened up wonderfully), but it would be great if you could just nudge stuff left and right a bit in the verses to get just a taste more separation. EQ's right, space is right, drums sound good. It's that overlap in the first part, though... listen to around 1.08 - 1.11...what are the lyrics? Dunno. Can't make 'em out. But I should be able to, right?

I get by with insolence and wine. Indeed. Make it shine.

Two last things, and the first is more important: this one sounds good, it s-o-u-n-d-s good, sonically pleasing. Finally, I really like it. Done good.

Hey dobro, thanks so much for the great feedback and the kind words. It is truly appreciated.

I hear you on the mono-ness of some areas of the mix. The contrast of moving between mainly mono and stereo is something that I really like to do. I like a mix to open and close in addition to intensifying and relaxing. However, while the mono nature of portions of the mix is intentional, I am definitely interested in further increasing the separation between the vocals and the guitar. I don't want to get separation using panning though. Panning, as I prefer to use it, is purely positional and does not have bearing on separation one way or another. If I get out of my seat, stand at the back of the room, walk around, shift positions in my chair, turn my head, listen on a laptop, listen on a little bose wave system with speakers right beside each other and so on and so forth, the panning done to help create separation no longer has that same (or in some cases, any) effectiveness.

That line at 1:08 is "Navigate like I'm a pilot". I really never do partial panning, except for with apparent positions of some drums to support stereo placement in OH and room mics so I'm not likely to move anything slightly out of centre normally (I say normally because I am open to playing with it). With a single guitar track like this, I am left with pretty much putting it up the middle. It unbalances the mix too much panned out hard to one side. I experimented with panning a reverb to the opposite side, but that just didn't have the vibe I wanted and it made the mix too wide for what I wanted in the verses. I can spend more time on this though. I am definitely into experimenting to see what I can do. I love this stuff.

Thanks for the great thoughts. I'll see what I can do!

 

[dobro]

The contrast of moving between mainly mono and stereo is something that I really like to do.

Got it. You have to achieve separation in some way other than panning, then.