Music to Murder - Cold Soul

kindafishy

kindafishy

Member
Been hanging around and listening to songs in this forum for a while now. This will be my first song post here though. I plan to post many more, but I work verrrrrry slooooowly as a part-time (but very serious and passionate) hobbyist, so it will take a while. Anyone who recognizes our band from other forums I have posted in will likely recognize this song as I have posted it elsewhere a long time ago, but this mix is brand new as we are now compiling an official release.

This is also my first mix in my (relatively) new space.

So, this is the first of nine songs recorded over the last 4 or 5 years that we are remixing for the first official Music to Murder release. I am pushing the faders, but the production duties are shared. My writing partner (Sam) and I (Kevin) share the writing and recording duties and we bring in friends as guest musicians with a few different songs.

We would love to get some feedback on the mix. As it stands, it passes the car test, the stereo test and sounds good when played back in both of our mix spaces, but like many (most? all?), it is difficult to keep objectivity. I'm sure my ears are missing things because that is invariably the way it goes.

Here's the link to the song (box has a great player and allows for good quality mp3s, just pop it open in a new tab):

Music to Murder - Cold Soul
https://app.box.com/s/fyp5ba8snk8h6ktu9z8s26en4litfg5f

Thanks very much for taking the time to listen. All comments are welcome. Good, bad, indifferent, anything. Nothing is off limits.
 
I'd recommend you drop the Who intro vocal, doesn't serve any purpose.

There are times when the centered guitar lead part (the wahe-ed one) is interfering with the vocal,knocking the volume of it down or EQing should work.
 
Cool Song. The thing that stands out to me is the rhythm guitar tone. Sounds like too much of the top end distortion flutter, which makes it sound like it was DI'd into the system. And agreeing with mjb the wah does clutter up the verses when played over the vocals. Good song though. Great job
 
mjbphotos said:
I'd recommend you drop the Who intro vocal, doesn't serve any purpose.

There are times when the centered guitar lead part (the wahe-ed one) is interfering with the vocal,knocking the volume of it down or EQing should work.
Click to expand...

Subjective thoughts are very much welcome. Personally, I love the nod to the Who in the intro. In addition to it being a tip of our hat, I think it sets the vibe for what follows and it is relevant to the rest of the song. So, it stays but I can appreciate that you may not feel that it adds anything. Good stuff.

Great ear on the wah vs. vocal. I'll take a very serious listen to that over the next day or so. It's probably quite common, but I find that when I get really, really familiar with all the intricacies of a song, that my mind adds a bit of clarity and separation that is maybe just not there. One of the curses of this mix game, I suppose.

Appreciate the listen and the feedback!
 
Bruthish said:
Cool Song. The thing that stands out to me is the rhythm guitar tone. Sounds like too much of the top end distortion flutter, which makes it sound like it was DI'd into the system. And agreeing with mjb the wah does clutter up the verses when played over the vocals. Good song though. Great job
Click to expand...

Thank you, very much.

I'd love to hear more about what the top end distortion flutter is. This isn't a description of an aspect to a sound or tone that I'm familiar with. It was, in fact, a DI guitar. I'm using AcmeBarGig Shred for the guitars. It's still (by far) my favourite sim for darker or heavier distorted guitar. Other than this, I also enjoy S-Gear quite a bit. I don't have access to IRL amps right now, although I am considering getting into using amps and mics starting this summer. I might pick up a small Fender and a small Marshall when the time comes.

Anyway... I can tell you that I 'like' the sound and character of the rhythm guitars, for what it's worth, but if I can get a handle on what you are describing, I am all for improving it within the vibe of what I'm going for. The basic characteristics are sitting well with me right now, but I'm all ears. If you don't mind, please explain a bit more and if you have dealt with this in the past, a really quick description of how you might deal with it would be awesome.
 
I liked the song. I liked the mood and I liked the energy. I liked the wah guitar.

The distorted guitar is a little bit too sizzly for me. A bit too much gain and a bit too much top end.

The vocal performances are a little lacking. Some notes are a little tentative, over pronounced, and/or a bit pitchy.

A couple of spots where the playing was a little sloppy.

The bass is fairly muddy and a bit too strong in the low end (I'm guessing there are problems around 300hz and 70hz-90hz).
 
kindafishy said:
Thank you, very much.

I'd love to hear more about what the top end distortion flutter is. This isn't a description of an aspect to a sound or tone that I'm familiar with. It was, in fact, a DI guitar. I'm using AcmeBarGig Shred for the guitars. It's still (by far) my favourite sim for darker or heavier distorted guitar. Other than this, I also enjoy S-Gear quite a bit. I don't have access to IRL amps right now, although I am considering getting into using amps and mics starting this summer. I might pick up a small Fender and a small Marshall when the time comes.

Anyway... I can tell you that I 'like' the sound and character of the rhythm guitars, for what it's worth, but if I can get a handle on what you are describing, I am all for improving it within the vibe of what I'm going for. The basic characteristics are sitting well with me right now, but I'm all ears. If you don't mind, please explain a bit more and if you have dealt with this in the past, a really quick description of how you might deal with it would be awesome.
Click to expand...

TripleM hears it too as he states in the above post. Flutter was the best way for my to describe it at the time, his "sizzly" comment is probably more spot on. Its that crackly high distortion sound that makes it sound a little artificial. Best thing to do is compare it to other tracks that have been posted or even commercial recordings and see if you can hear the difference. When I used to record many many years ago, I used to DI my stuff a lot and had that same problem with distortion guitars. Now getting back into it I have done more mic'ing of a very small studio amp and the results are very very good to me. Sorry I can't elaborate any further on a description of your sound, you either hear it or you don't. Don't get me wrong, it don't sound bad....in my opinion you just need to cut some of that high end on it.
 
Yeah I think Bruthish and I are speaking about the same thing regarding the distorted guitar tone. My recommendation is don't fall into the trap of talking yourself into liking your tone. Maybe come back to it in a week (or longer) and compare it to a pro mix that you like. You might be able to listen to it a little more objectively once you're away from it for a while.
 
TripleM said:
I liked the song. I liked the mood and I liked the energy. I liked the wah guitar.

The distorted guitar is a little bit too sizzly for me. A bit too much gain and a bit too much top end.

The vocal performances are a little lacking. Some notes are a little tentative, over pronounced, and/or a bit pitchy.

A couple of spots where the playing was a little sloppy.

The bass is fairly muddy and a bit too strong in the low end (I'm guessing there are problems around 300hz and 70hz-90hz).
Click to expand...

TripleM said:
Yeah I think Bruthish and I are speaking about the same thing regarding the distorted guitar tone. My recommendation is don't fall into the trap of talking yourself into liking your tone. Maybe come back to it in a week (or longer) and compare it to a pro mix that you like. You might be able to listen to it a little more objectively once you're away from it for a while.
Click to expand...

Thank you, TripleM.

Excellent points. Understood on the sizzly guitars. A problem that I have is that I like the top end subtleties and details that comes out with that level of gain, but of course, fizziness is not a goal. Not sure how to get one without the other. I will try some things here to see if I can figure it out.

Talking one's self into liking something is a huge deal. I do it all the time. I lose objectivity frighteningly fast when trying to narrow in on what I think is a good tone. You'd think that it would be easy. "Does it sound good? If yes, done, if no, tweak some dials." Wish it was like that. My brain tends to make everything sound good very quickly. This is a very good reason to take a small break, as you are suggesting. I will do so. I'm compiling feedback and I will wait a few days before firing up the DAW and considering this advice.

Performances and playing and such are aspects that we are both happy with. Unless something is cringe worthy and really throwing they rhythm or vibe of the song off, both of us prefer to use tracks that have a sense of expression (in our opinion) to them, even if they have issues. We're not anti-precision and we don't hold a granola-eating, tree-hugging opinion that blemishes are needed to produce beauty, but if we like what is captured because it feels good, then that is what is most important to us. Much more so than doing more takes to nail the timing with 0 cent precision. Good feel and groove with just enough sleaze. You will see this as a common trait to our music as I continue to post over time.

A great observation on the bass as well. Man, if you think this one has problems, you should hear some of my older mixes. On second though, no, you shouldn't. Bass has always been my Achilles Heel. I think it is better now, but as you point out, I should take another listen. I used to say that I would figure it out eventually.

Much appreciated!
 
Bruthish said:
TripleM hears it too as he states in the above post. Flutter was the best way for my to describe it at the time, his "sizzly" comment is probably more spot on. Its that crackly high distortion sound that makes it sound a little artificial. Best thing to do is compare it to other tracks that have been posted or even commercial recordings and see if you can hear the difference. When I used to record many many years ago, I used to DI my stuff a lot and had that same problem with distortion guitars. Now getting back into it I have done more mic'ing of a very small studio amp and the results are very very good to me. Sorry I can't elaborate any further on a description of your sound, you either hear it or you don't. Don't get me wrong, it don't sound bad....in my opinion you just need to cut some of that high end on it.
Click to expand...

Got it, and I do hear it. Perhaps I am just conditioned to it now. Like I just remarked to TripleM, it is hard though because when the gain is up, I like the dark, grinding, buzzsaw type distortion in the mid to low mids, and I like the high end details like little harmonic bits that come from brushing the strings both with the picking hand and when changing chords and notes. I would love to be able to figure out how to get one (the harmonic character bits) without the other (the tell-tale fizz).

When I used to perform, I used a cranked up tweed amp and I always got a lot of that upper end character, but it was all accompanied by nice sounding, pleasant treble, not thin fizz. I would love to be able to reproduce that and capture it, but I haven't been able to do so with sims. I feel like others get that without too much issue, so I am hesitant to blame amp sims and I am more inclined to feel that it is my own shortcomings.

On the other hand, I am growing weary of fighting with virtual amps, virtual sims and virtual microphones anyway. I am interested in what you are saying about getting better results with a small studio amp. I am VERY interested in this option myself. I have been hesitant to pull the trigger because I don't want to find that it really doesn't make that much different to the end result. I am starting to feel more and more like it will though. Seeing an experience such as yours lends to that.

Maybe it's time to whip out the credit card this weekend? Worst case, I'll end up with a sweet little amp that I enjoy playing through, right?

Thanks again for taking the time to check this out and share your thoughts.
 
This sounds pretty good. I did get a distinct whiff of DI from the guitar tones at first but I didn't mind so much. It sounded pretty cool in context. Just a bit fuzzy/fizzy especially when there's sustained chords or notes ringing out together.

I thought there was good energy to the performance. I probably am more in the granola-munching, tree-embracing camp myself (although I don't actually do either of those things) in terms of tightness, so from my perspective, this sounded pretty tight. There seemed to be a hiccup of sorts around 3:23-3:26 where the beat collapsed for a second, but it recovered nicely.

I thought the bass guitar was maybe just a little bit rumbly sounding.

I like the all out wah attack...what if you dropped it back some when it overlaps with vocals, and then bring it forward when the singing stops? It might have more impact that way?
 
kindafishy said:
but of course, fizziness is not a goal. Not sure how to get one without the other. I will try some things here to see if I can figure it out.
Click to expand...

In the "Guitars and Basses" forum there is a thread titled something like "the all new tone thread" - it's almost 500 pages long as I write this. Guys post up samples of just guitar. They describe their equipment (guitar, amp, mics) and how it was used (guitar/amp settings, mic position, etc.). Then people review the sound and offer suggestions. There are a few guys in that thread that are extremely knowledgeable and are very generous with their time. I would suggest participating in that thread. You might get some help from them.

I'd also suggest reviewing other people's tunes here in the MP3 Clinic. It will improve your ear. And it will help other people.
 
TripleM said:
In the "Guitars and Basses" forum there is a thread titled something like "the all new tone thread" - it's almost 500 pages long as I write this. Guys post up samples of just guitar. They describe their equipment (guitar, amp, mics) and how it was used (guitar/amp settings, mic position, etc.). Then people review the sound and offer suggestions. There are a few guys in that thread that are extremely knowledgeable and are very generous with their time. I would suggest participating in that thread. You might get some help from them.
Click to expand...

Brilliant, thank you so much.

TripleM said:
I'd also suggest reviewing other people's tunes here in the MP3 Clinic. It will improve your ear. And it will help other people.
Click to expand...

I do! I will continue to do so. I love listening to others hard work and giving feedback. It is as much part of why I am here as any other reason :). Strangely, I seem to be able to hear what is happening with other people's songs much easier than I can with my own. Developing that level of objectivity towards my own work is a real challenge. I am guessing that most everyone faces a similar challenge.
 
heatmiser said:
This sounds pretty good. I did get a distinct whiff of DI from the guitar tones at first but I didn't mind so much. It sounded pretty cool in context. Just a bit fuzzy/fizzy especially when there's sustained chords or notes ringing out together.

I thought there was good energy to the performance. I probably am more in the granola-munching, tree-embracing camp myself (although I don't actually do either of those things) in terms of tightness, so from my perspective, this sounded pretty tight. There seemed to be a hiccup of sorts around 3:23-3:26 where the beat collapsed for a second, but it recovered nicely.

I thought the bass guitar was maybe just a little bit rumbly sounding.

I like the all out wah attack...what if you dropped it back some when it overlaps with vocals, and then bring it forward when the singing stops? It might have more impact that way?
Click to expand...

Thanks a tonne for the awesome comments. Going to head over to the guitars and basses thread that TripleM mentioned. I do really appreciate you essentially saying that for DI it sounds pretty cool. I really want to be able to remove the "for DI" disclaimer though.

Excellent observations on the bass and the wah guitar. Those are on my list for a mix revision!

Thanks :)
 
Okay, just completed an updated mix based largely on the feedback here.

What has changed:

- All completely redone guitar sounds. I am no longer using any amp sims on this song. Everything is routed out to IRL amps and recorded back into the project.
- The bass has been reworked as well to hopefully have it come across as less muddy, reduced in level and with increased definition.
- The wah guitar is heavily automated to keep it out of the way of the vocals.

Lots of back and forth between Sam and I to get it to the point where we both like what we are hearing, but as always, new ears and different opinions means everything, so if anyone would like to leave some thoughts, it would be most appreciated.

The original post has a link to the newest version of the song, but here it is so you don't have to click back:
https://app.box.com/s/fyp5ba8snk8h6ktu9z8s26en4litfg5f

Here is the mix that was first posted for this thread (if there is anyone interested in a comparison):
https://app.box.com/s/75mvc2i97k1228vntko5sr6dwc6991o6


Thanks so much for the feedback so far. It has proven invaluable!
 
Listening to mix #2. I think that this sounds pretty damn good. Nice guitar sounds and I like the bass. I saw some comments above that the vocals were getting tangled up with the guitars in the previous mix, and I think that is still true with this newer mix. During the verses, the vocals get indistinct among the guitar action. If you've already tried some automation on the guitars, I'm not sure what to suggest.

The only real nit-pick that I have is the intro vocal line...reminds me of that awful 1990's W.A.S.P. cover of The Who's "Have You Seen The Real Me".

But all in all I like this. Good to hear some nice original music, and I think you've done a great job on it. Even with the vocals getting buried at times, I'd still be happy with this mix if it were mine.
 
The bass isn't translating very well on midrange players. One reason is that it isn't all that present on the regular monitors, and when I switch over to the Avantone, it just about disappears. How about turning it up and also boosting something somewhere between 440 and 1100?

In the chorus, the vocal's disappearing a bit. Turn it up? In fact, you could turn the vocal up anyway. (But not during the segments where it's just the vocal and bass.)

Nice tune, ye olde fellowe. I like it a lot.
 
I'd still recommend axing the Who vocal intro - it's not that strong, and if you actually want to release this on an album, you're going to pay for the rights to use it. As others have said, the vocal is a little low in the mix most of the time, and the wah guitar is still interfering with it - have you tried ducking the guitar with the lead vocal? As Dobro says, the bass is low in the mix too.
 
First listen...the lead vocal could be tighter, louder, and warmer. The bg vocs might be better not so hard panned. The left guitar is too loud...it could benefit putting it in various places throughout the tune. As it is...panned hard left like that...it's distracting.

It's a good rock tune. It could benefit by a stronger lead vocal and a tighter performance...which would increase the energy.
 
Tadpui said:
Listening to mix #2. I think that this sounds pretty damn good. Nice guitar sounds and I like the bass. I saw some comments above that the vocals were getting tangled up with the guitars in the previous mix, and I think that is still true with this newer mix. During the verses, the vocals get indistinct among the guitar action. If you've already tried some automation on the guitars, I'm not sure what to suggest.

The only real nit-pick that I have is the intro vocal line...reminds me of that awful 1990's W.A.S.P. cover of The Who's "Have You Seen The Real Me".

But all in all I like this. Good to hear some nice original music, and I think you've done a great job on it. Even with the vocals getting buried at times, I'd still be happy with this mix if it were mine.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tadpui! I really appreciate your kind thoughts.

I suppose I have a couple more options that I can explore with the guitars. The first option would be to leave it :). The second option could be to move the guitar out to one side or the other so it is not competing with the vocal so much. Still another option, and this seems interesting, I have just learned of an EQ that works in much the way that a sidechained compressor works, except that it applies an opposite EQ curve from the chained source. Seems like something I want to experiment with if nothing else. It might be just the tool for the job since all the more traditional, simpler approaches seem to be falling a bit short.

Intro vocal. Okay. You guys win. Sam and I discussed it and it will be removed in the next mix :). I like it. I will miss it, but I can deal with it. ...especially now because you have made a W.A.S.P. comparison. I can't let that one go.

Thanks again. I am getting happy with this mix. Not totally there yet. Still needs a bit of work, but I feel like I'm in the final stretch.
 
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