Moron needs help with mixing/clipping/tonal balance challenges (song link included)

slazenger

New member
I just started recording again after a 25-year hiatus (my last home recordings were done on a 4-track Tascam tape machine) and I've made every dumb mistake in the book. A lot of those I've fixed. The biggest challenge I'm having is with mixing. I'm fine with setting relative instrument levels and using effects, etc, but I just don't have a good ear for tonal balance - getting proper EQ settings for the individual channels to mesh into something with proper overall tonal balance eludes me. I fixed the obvious mistakes I was making at first (e.g., eliminated everything from the master bus, brought channels to below -3db, reduced the master to -6db, etc). But I'm still not quite there and I don't trust my ears after thinking previous versions (before I fixed a lot of stuff) were borderline listenable (they were not). So I was wondering if some folks here would listen to the song below (in dropbox) and offer some comments. I don't care what you think of the song (tastes vary) or it's structure, etc... I'm just curious as to whether you hear clipping, whether there's too much high end, too much low end, insufficient mids, etc etc - basically, distortion and tone (EQ) issues. This song is not in (merely) "acceptable" form yet - I realize that - but I'm trying to figure out how far out I am (I'll probably need professional help, which is fine). This has been mastered using a Landr medium setting - the mastering is not at fault for the questionable shape it's in. I'm not going for what most folks think of as hi-fi or FM radio-ready by today's standards - my favorite music is the late-80s Creation Records stuff (yes, lots of reverb, not the highest fidelity) - but I also don't want it to sound like complete sh1t from an EQ perspective. Anyhow, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Edit - Updated version 2 (again, sounds much better... details for those interested in post #21 below... thanks for all the help)


Edit - Updated version 1 (sounds much better - thanks for the help - much rounder and fuller):
[I increased the bass and bass drum levels in the mix as well as the low-end for both; increased the low-end on the whole mix but reduced the sub-low frequencies; gave a tiny boost to the high end on the vocals; and cut the length and depth of the reverb in some spots where it clearly wasn't necessary]
Dropbox - carnival (v02b mast med wav).wav

Still work to be done - it sounds much better. The two main remaining issues are that (1) the low end, while it's fuller, lacks definition, and (2) I think there are a lot of battles for frequency going on in the mix in various places that I can't fix by myself. It still sounds a bit unbalanced, but it's much improved.

Original version:
Dropbox - carnival (v02 mast med wav).wav
 
Last edited:
I don't think you have a problem with distortion or clipping. The first thing I notice is the lack of low end. The kick sounds like someone playing cross-stick on snare. I realize you want it to sound "light" but I think you've gone a step or two too far. The bass could use a little more bottom as well.

As far as levels, it's generally best to record and mix with a target average level of about -18dBFS for most kinds of sources, and peak levels of about -6dBFS for short duration percussive sources. That means that a track is crossing the -18dBFS line fairly regularly when active, not staying above or below for too long. The most important thing is to stay away from 0dBFS. Think of -18dBFS in digital as the equivalent to 0dBVU in analog.

If you record a track and it's well off that mark you should be able to adjust clip gain or the equivalent in your software. What DAW are you using, by the way?
 
I don't think you have a problem with distortion or clipping. The first thing I notice is the lack of low end. The kick sounds like someone playing cross-stick on snare. I realize you want it to sound "light" but I think you've gone a step or two too far. The bass could use a little more bottom as well.

As far as levels, it's generally best to record and mix with a target average level of about -18dBFS for most kinds of sources, and peak levels of about -6dBFS for short duration percussive sources. That means that a track is crossing the -18dBFS line fairly regularly when active, not staying above or below for too long. The most important thing is to stay away from 0dBFS. Think of -18dBFS in digital as the equivalent to 0dBVU in analog.

If you record a track and it's well off that mark you should be able to adjust clip gain or the equivalent in your software. What DAW are you using, by the way?

Thanks a lot for your help. One of the mistakes I made that I can't undo (well, I'm too lazy to undo) is that when I recorded this (and several other songs) I was thinking of my analog days and I recorded the signals around -5db, which I discovered is unnecessarily hot for digital. But I don't hear any clipping on the source recordings, nor on the master (in this case), so I *think* I dodged a bullet in that respect. Going forward, I'll probably max out on my digital interface between -18db and -9 db (now that I know better).

Yes, I agree, I think there's a lack of "fullness" on the bottom end, mainly the result of questionable EQ on the bass drum and bass. I'm going to need help getting that right - I'm quickly moving out of my depth. I'm also going to go into the various channels and try to reduce the reverb (as much as I hate the idea) and the length of some of the reverbs to get things a little less murky, which will probably also help to bring out the bottom end. [I would post an earlier version of this song but it's so horrific as to be unlistenable - the channel levels, master fader, WAY too high; there was stuff on the master bus... it was terrifyingly bad - clipping and gristle everywhere - and I didn't realize it until I started reading up on how to do things properly. This is the origin of the distrust of my ears.]

My main three pieces of equipment are Garageband, a VoxBox preamp, and a UA Arrow digital interface. Everything goes through those three.

How is the high end? I have a tendency to mix things a bit high-endy because I don't like a lot of rumble at the bottom end, but I'm concerned about cutting too much high end in overcompensating, and the vocals end up a bit mid-rangey, lacking a crisp high end. How is the signal-to-noise? It doesn't seem that great to me - albeit acceptable - despite the fact that I recorded things pretty hot (for digital) - and this has been mastered. Thanks again for your help.
 
I would strongly suggest using reference tracks to get the best sounding tonal balance. Especially if your monitors aren't giving you and accurate representation-you need to be comparing those that you know the sound of already.
 
Last edited:
It's really common to have trouble mixing the low frequencies when your room is less than ideal. Using reference tracks can help a lot. Also, walk around the room to sort of average out the effects of the room.
 
Cool feel to the song. Some things I'd point out...

The bass level is low and the bass tone doesn't have enough low end.

The vocal is getting covered by the guitars. They're kind of occupying the same frequency space and the guitars are winning.

I might back off the reverb at least till you get things sorted out a little.

The snare is a little slappy - not much power. I can't hear the kick much at all.
 
Cool feel to the song. Some things I'd point out...

The bass level is low and the bass tone doesn't have enough low end.

Agreed. I *think* I've corrected most of that issue in the updated version (above).

The vocal is getting covered by the guitars. They're kind of occupying the same frequency space and the guitars are winning.

True, although that's kind of by design (although not completely). I like the vocals fighting for space, like they're just another instrument (kind of like Michael Stipe on Murmur) - it's a retro stylistic preference - but clearly that can be taken too far... maybe I have here. But it's a good point and one I've heard before.

I might back off the reverb at least till you get things sorted out a little.

Agreed. I did some reverb editing for the updated version but it's still pretty fjordy... might have to do some more. We'll see.

The snare is a little slappy - not much power. I can't hear the kick much at all.

I think I fixed the kick issue but the snare is a little thin... probably need to add some mid-range to fatten it up.

Thanks for your help - much appreciated.
 
I've just come to this, so not in the studio till later - but listening on my MacBook is always useful. The speakers are loud and the limitation is the bottom end - but sometimes this reveals things. On here - the kick drum is just a click, which almost sounds like a snare? I'll have a listen later on proper speakers in the studio. Normally I just don't hear kicks or low bass guitar - but the snare has a really pronounced higher frequency content, which isn't (on this computer) normal?
 
I've just come to this, so not in the studio till later - but listening on my MacBook is always useful. The speakers are loud and the limitation is the bottom end - but sometimes this reveals things. On here - the kick drum is just a click, which almost sounds like a snare? I'll have a listen later on proper speakers in the studio. Normally I just don't hear kicks or low bass guitar - but the snare has a really pronounced higher frequency content, which isn't (on this computer) normal?

I *think* that click you're hearing on the bass drum is the interaction of the bass drum and the high hat... might need to reduce the high end on the high hat. Might need to beef up the mid-range on the snare as well. Thanks!
 
I just listened to V2. Two things I would look at are the bass and kick, and the vocals. OK that's 3 things. The bass could use a high pass as there's a lot of boomy LF energy down there that's getting in the road. You might also want to get the bass/kick interaction working better as the kick has no weight. Vocals have too much reverb on them imo and it's making the lyrics unintelligible. Cool song though, well worth persevering with
 
kick has no low end punch, just top end click coming through my monitors, maybe add in some low end. This style of song, I'd go easy with it, just ease in some 80-100 hz into the kick.

The bass could come down in the mix a db or two, , guitars are a bit loud in the mix at times with that much effects going, and almost washed out with effects but, I like it.

Are you using quite a bit of compression on the vocals with a fast attack? , vocals Eq feels thin like there is no low mid warmth there. If you are using predelay on the vocal effects, I'd turn it up even more. You'll get a bit more intelligibility without losing the vibe.


I really like the song, it has kind of a 60's Fifth Dimension type feel to it. My place is under construction ,so I don't have a great monitor set up, so take it as my opinion on the speakers, and room I'm using.
 
Last edited:
I just listened to V2. Two things I would look at are the bass and kick, and the vocals. OK that's 3 things. The bass could use a high pass as there's a lot of boomy LF energy down there that's getting in the road. You might also want to get the bass/kick interaction working better as the kick has no weight. Vocals have too much reverb on them imo and it's making the lyrics unintelligible. Cool song though, well worth persevering with

Good advice, thanks again. I won't touch the reverby vocals... as that's a stylistic choice (also, it's part-and-parcel of the genre), but digging further into the bass and kick are great suggestions. I agree that there's something going on down there in the low end. In a way it's a bit boomy... in another way, it's not as full as it could be. So there's something funky going on there. I've reached the limits of my capabilities so I'm going into a mixing studio with an actual pro for the first (and hopefully last) time on Monday to see if we can fix some of these remaining issues. Because I use so many of the same instruments, settings, etc across songs, if I can get this one in the vicinity of decent, then I'll be able to transfer those settings onto other songs and not have to go through this much examination each time. So, we'll see what happens.
 
kick has no low end punch, just top end click coming through my monitors, maybe add in some low end. This style of song, I'd go easy with it, just ease in some 80-100 hz into the kick.

The bass could come down in the mix a db or two, , guitars are a bit loud in the mix at times with that much effects going, and almost washed out with effects but, I like it.

Are you using quite a bit of compression on the vocals with a fast attack? , vocals Eq feels thin like there is now low mid warmth there. If you are using predelay on the vocal effects, I'd turn it up even more. You'll get a bit more intelligibility without losing the vibe.


I really like the song, it has kind of a 60's Fifth Dimension type feel to it. My place is under construction ,so I don't have a great monitor set up, so take it as my opinion on the speakers, and room I'm using.

Many thanks for this. One thing I've found difficult is coming to a firm opinion about a mix. It will sound just about right in my studio and through my smartphone headphones (most things sound like butter through smartphone headphones), but in the car the guitars will sound a bit loud (and/or too bright) and it needs a bit more bass, but then on my desktop the bass sounds too pronounced and the vocals are a bit murky. They all sound very different and give me different cues. My general thought is to defer first to the smartphone (as 60%+ of all music is listened to on smartphones today) and secondly to my car stereo. Yes, I'm compressing the he11 out of the vocals because I don't sing particularly well (I have no training, little background, and I thoroughly despise singing) - I'm just trying to keep it together on the vocals - I agree there's warmth missing. I'm not using a pre-delay, but rather a tape delay that's a garageband plug-in... so the chain is mic to voxbox to interface to garageband (and then the tape delay is a plug-in). Anyhow, hopefully I/we can fix some of these issues on Monday. I'll report back. Thanks again!
 
Many thanks for this. One thing I've found difficult is coming to a firm opinion about a mix. It will sound just about right in my studio and through my smartphone headphones (most things sound like butter through smartphone headphones), but in the car the guitars will sound a bit loud (and/or too bright) and it needs a bit more bass, but then on my desktop the bass sounds too pronounced and the vocals are a bit murky. They all sound very different and give me different cues. My general thought is to defer first to the smartphone (as 60%+ of all music is listened to on smartphones today) and secondly to my car stereo. Yes, I'm compressing the he11 out of the vocals because I don't sing particularly well (I have no training, little background, and I thoroughly despise singing) - I'm just trying to keep it together on the vocals - I agree there's warmth missing. I'm not using a pre-delay, but rather a tape delay that's a garageband plug-in... so the chain is mic to voxbox to interface to garageband (and then the tape delay is a plug-in). Anyhow, hopefully I/we can fix some of these issues on Monday. I'll report back. Thanks again!
I hear you, it can drive you crazy sometimes. The best thing is to get reference tracks. Bring in a song that is similar in the style and sound as the one you are mixing, and reference back and forth. Listen the eq/ sound of the instruments, dynamics, effects used, volume changes, and overall tonality. I don't know if it's possible to get a mix that translates 100% across all platforms. There are some cool mixing techniques that will help your kick and bass translate to smart phone, laptop speakers, using duplicate tracks with mid forwards eq settings and adding in distortion. Then bring them up in the mix just underneath the main kick/bass track so it's not noticeable.

If you have monitors with a sub, or a bass boomy room, you'll tend to back the low end out of your mix. Your ears will perceive the low end Bass and kick etc. as being to loud. That is why having a very good mixing room helps so much.
 
I would suggest not attempting to master while you are still mixing. If the recorded tracks are good (sounds like they are here) then you don't need a bunch of EQ in your mix. The vocals and perhaps drums will need more. Most everything else, try to get by with just a high pass. Try 25 Hz for bass drum, 50 Hz for bass guitar, 100-150 Hz for guitars.

Work on getting the sound you want using faders, panning, and compression. Don't even think about mastering until you are satisfied with the mix.
 
I agree with BOULDER as far as level suggestions are concerned. If I understand your problem may be very simple to overcome. This is what I do. All setting are FLAT - 0 + Bass, Treble and Highs. No REVERB/ No Effects, boosting ect. Save all tweaking for final mix.
1. Lay down basic Tracks Set, Tempo (can be changed anytime. REMEMBER this is digital / not analog recording, all of your levels must be below zero vue with the master voice "peeking" between minus 8 and minus 5 . This means your Lead guitar, human voice sax ect. depending on your instrument of choice. All supporting instruments will have settings close to 1/2 of your lead instrument generally speaking.
For an example ,take 5 minutes out of your day, relax run a quick drum track down even a 30 second loop now go back add a bass line both settings between minus 20 and minus 10. Now before adding anything to that mix ,blend them until it sounds close to what you want.,, Now add maybe light strings for pad now try the guitar lead or voice and see if your 're "hearing" something more to what you are trying to accomplish. I wish you the best with your projects, sir. GOD Bless !
 
I agree with BOULDER as far as level suggestions are concerned. If I understand your problem may be very simple to overcome. This is what I do. All setting are FLAT - 0 + Bass, Treble and Highs. No REVERB/ No Effects, boosting ect. Save all tweaking for final mix.
1. Lay down basic Tracks Set, Tempo (can be changed anytime. REMEMBER this is digital / not analog recording, all of your levels must be below zero vue with the master voice "peeking" between minus 8 and minus 5 . This means your Lead guitar, human voice sax ect. depending on your instrument of choice. All supporting instruments will have settings close to 1/2 of your lead instrument generally speaking.
For an example ,take 5 minutes out of your day, relax run a quick drum track down even a 30 second loop now go back add a bass line both settings between minus 20 and minus 10. Now before adding anything to that mix ,blend them until it sounds close to what you want.,, Now add maybe light strings for pad now try the guitar lead or voice and see if your 're "hearing" something more to what you are trying to accomplish. I wish you the best with your projects, sir. GOD Bless !

By The way pertaining to your "reverb" The most famous quote is " Less Is More" with a touch of Delay it usually makes it Purrrrfect,smiles Have a great project !
 
I really like the song, melody, and playing and singing.

I would tend to agree with others that the bass / kick drum could benefit from some more oomph, maybe warmth.

In addition to potentially boosting the kick, my sensibilities really want to hear the whole track come 'forward' more, even if you keep the reverb.

One of the things that used to frustrate me when recording in GarageBand was that I could never get enough presence (by which I really mean gain, I think) in the final mix.

You are miles better than I was when I used GB (now use Reaper), but I am not sure if you are using the technique that finally 'saved' me, so I thought I would mention it. I read someone suggesting to export the song, and then to drop imported stereo (or mono) track back into GarageBand, and then master it from there.

Maybe everybody does, this - I do not know - but it really allowed me to get more of a finished, louder, more 'up front' sound.

All the best.
 
drums and vocals! that high hat is way too clik sounding. sort of aggravating, actually. the bass does get a little muddy sounding at times. and the vocals, well, they do get lost in the mix. hard to say how can you fix these things when it's purely up to you to spend time and effort experimenting with such things as say, amp sim on the bass, harmonic exciters on the vocals, rerouting your drums to a vst like ez drummer. land r is a waste of money. learn how trust your ears and master yourself. the guitars i like. the magic and convenience of a home studio allows indefinite variables. try them and you will find that sweet spot. but, not without putting in the time.
 
I went to a professional mixer/mastering guy and he fixed everything in a few hours and, more importantly, taught me a bunch of things. I'll post the result at some point once it's got a final master. He actually thought the landr master (after he re-mixed it) sounded pretty good - not as good as his (of course) - but he thought it was quite decent. I use it just to get an idea of what the master's going to sound like, even though I know that a human (that you've had discussions with) is going to do a better job... having some idea is better than none, especially when you're a total rookie.
 
Back
Top