Grindcore mix (feedback/assistance desired)

ausgrindslaught

New member
Hey guys I play in a three piece grindcore band. We've recorded a track - not for anything serious - just for MySpace but I'd like a bit of feedback and a bit of a hand with the mix.

We recorded drums with 4 mics (kick, snare, overhead, ride bell). The kicks sound lifeless and sludgy because our drummer needs new kicks. I have 2 guitar tracks and 2 vocal tracks running. No bass. We will be recording bass for our professional debut next year (professionally recorded too).

I would like to know:

1. What do you think of the overall instrument levels (all drum mics vs. guitars) and placement thereof? It's hard to get a good balance with something so chaotic, we need big guitars, the snare to cut through, and the overheads/kick to have decent levels.

2. Most importantly I need feedback on mixing the vocals. Placement is proving to be a bastard as they get a little lost in the chaos. I'd also like to thicken them up a little bit.

And before anyone says anything - yes this is noise. Thats the point. I'll post the MP3 in a second.

As harmony grows ever more complicated today, musical art seeks out combinations more dissonant, stranger, and harsher for the ear. Thus, it comes ever closer to the noise-sound. -Luigi Russolo
 
Link doesn't work.

Besides, why would you be proud of noise? Anyone can make noise. Don't hide under false disclaimers.
 
Damn:



I didnt mean literal noise. It's not noise-core or ambiance or the like, it's extreme grindcore. We usually play at 330-360bpm. The desired production effect (not for myself but for bigger professional recordings) is whats known as a wall of sound - to some the wall of guitars and insanely quick drumming sounds like noise. It's hard for first timers to discern the riffs and textures of the guitar. Refer to Pig Destroyer, Rotten Sound and Nasum.

Dont judge what you haven't heard, and I dont believe I need a false disclaimer to justify one of the styles of music I love to you. Whether you understand or approve of the style doesnt matter. It's certainly a bit less dull than KISS or Judas Priest.

Regardless it is the extreme, post-modern progression and evolution of some of the bands you like such as the Sex Pistols.
 
Damn:



I didnt mean literal noise. It's not noise-core or ambiance or the like, it's extreme grindcore. We usually play at 330-360bpm. The desired production effect (not for myself but for bigger professional recordings) is whats known as a wall of sound - to some the wall of guitars and insanely quick drumming sounds like noise. It's hard for first timers to discern the riffs and textures of the guitar. Refer to Pig Destroyer, Rotten Sound and Nasum.

Dont judge what you haven't heard, and I dont believe I need a false disclaimer to justify one of the styles of music I love to you. Whether you understand or approve of the style doesnt matter. It's certainly a bit less dull than KISS or Judas Priest.

Regardless it is the extreme, post-modern progression and evolution of some of the bands you like such as the Sex Pistols.

I wasn't judging you, fucktard. And I'm not asking for justification. I don't care what the fuck you listen to. My comments were meant as a "don't sell yourself short" type thing. You called your music "noise". I'm saying that kind of label undermines what you're trying to do. It wasn't meant as a negative, although maybe it should have been. :rolleyes:
 
I wasn't judging you, fucktard. And I'm not asking for justification. I don't care what the fuck you listen to. My comments were meant as a "don't sell yourself short" type thing. You called your music "noise". I'm saying that kind of label undermines what you're trying to do. It wasn't meant as a negative, although maybe it should have been. :rolleyes:

Haha oh well then I apologize. I took it the wrong way. I must be too defensive.

Cheers.
 
Honestly.....I don't get it. But, kudos to you for putting it out there for us to listen to.:D
 
Guitars are way too bright and harsh. Hard to listen to and even harder to tell whats going on.

Is there even a bass guitar?

Drums sound awful. Seriously. The snare sounds like the wires are disengaged. Theres a lot of kick coming through, but it sounds muddy. You'd probably want to use triggers for stuff like this.

Vocals.....well they're there. :o


Congrats. You succeeded on dishing out some noise. :D :p

I guess I'd start with trying to fix the drums. Then bring in some bass and tame those guitars.
 
Honestly.....I don't get it. But, kudos to you for putting it out there for us to listen to.:D

Haha most dont. No dramas there.

Greg: We're not going to use triggers when we record professionally but the kit will sound infinitely better. As I said the skins are begging to be thrown out, which I think accounts for the muddy kick and shitty snare. If the kick still sounds horrible, then triggers it is (but I hate the things).

Not much I can do there - I might try and play with the kick EQ, or I might just have to drop it out a bit.

We're a three piece so we dont have a bassist. However I'm a bassist and might record bass for the tracks anyway. If we cant have kicks then we might as well have some kind of bottom end.

Tame the guitars - IE: less harsh/bright?

Vocals arent overpowering? Beautifully melodic no doubt.

Thanks for your advice!
 
& now we have a debate on post modernism on HR?
The music on offer - the snare sounds like a cheap bongo & the cymbals like sheets of alfoil.
The distortion seems to be all fizz and no substance was this a pod or something like an emulator?
Bass, where for art though bass? MIA?
The arrangement seems OK for the guitars & the vocal line and the drums pattern is as required for the form, (it's a form that has severe restriction really isn't it!)
The vocal - I have to admit to having said that to me such is...like a bloke having his haemorrhoids removed by a dentist... so, as I don't "get" it, I won't comment.
Isn't post modernism the co-opting of other forms, media (esp mass) and symbols often with an emphasis on photorealism, hyperrealism or surrealism in a self conscious way that is deeply rooted in the ironic?
How does that apply I wonder?
Less dull than Kiss? Do you mean in terms of structure, theme, arrangement, performance, audio spectrum or fun quotient?
Judas Priest? Man the NWOBHM left me as bemused as grindcore.
Sex Pistols were, msuically, Black Sabbath LPs played at 45. I tried it at the time - it's true, but in every other way it is/was/remains a very significant part in musical evolution and as such can be claimed as an anticedent of your chosen form. Such a claim could also be made by Scissor Sister (shudder) though. I think the self imposed strictures of your form are the antithesis of what happened in '76 though.
Work on those guitars, bass & drums - you might have something good going.
 
The snare sounds like a cheap bongo & the cymbals like sheets of alfoil.

Yep. He need new skins. Single overhead. Pretty average cymbals.

The distortion seems to be all fizz and no substance was this a pod or something like an emulator?

Crappy Marshall amp unfortunately recorded with an SM57. I wont have that problem with the Fender Metalhead I will have in a month. And the new Jackson guitar.

Bass, where for art though bass? MIA?

Told yah in the intro. No bass. Three-piece. Might have to record one since the kicks are terrible.

The arrangement seems OK for the guitars & the vocal line and the drums pattern is as required for the form, (it's a form that has severe restriction really isn't it!)

The arrangement is boring as. We’re working on that, this is easily one of the most straight forward tracks we’ve done. Check out Genghis Tron and The Dillinger Escape Plan. I think it has the potential to be quite a malleable genre when it comes down to it, though I don’t think I’ve progressed enough to take advantage of that.

The vocal - I have to admit to having said that to me such is...like a bloke having his haemorrhoids removed by a dentist... so, as I don't "get" it, I won't comment.

He’s angry. He’s passionate. He’s yelling but not ‘growling’. Haha.

Isn't post modernism the co-opting of other forms, media (esp mass) and symbols often with an emphasis on photorealism, hyperrealism or surrealism in a self conscious way that is deeply rooted in the ironic?

It’s more than just an art period mate, it’s a multifaceted, technological, economic and socio-cultural progression into a new age. I’m talking more from a sociological view – it’s the idea that no truth is absolute, no reality is absolute, that nothing is certain, chaos (or complexity far beyond our comprehension) is inevitable and the realisation that humankind will not automatically progress towards enlightenment (so you’ve got some nice nihilistic undertones in there).

Chaos and nihilism marked by extreme uncertainty and rapid change across the world. Where it was once though that the modern would better everyone, it’s proving not to be the case. I think grindcore is a great soundtrack to that chaos.

I think the self imposed strictures of your form are the antithesis of what happened in '76 though.

Well the way I interpret the genre is this: it progressed out of the hardcore punk scene in the early 80s coupled with the speed on thrash metal and the heaviness of death metal. As such it melded the socio-political consciousness and concerns of the hardcore scene with the technicality and (scant) philosophical introspection of death metal.

I believe the genre is infinitely more flexible, and it is a genre that prides itself on experimentation, progression and the continued incorporation of a wider range of influences (be that metal, punk, rock, jazz or so on) – whereas I believe a genre like death metal rewards rehashing the same concepts and structures. People blend grindcore nowdays with death metal, hardcore punk, punk, d-beats, powerviolence, jazz, swing, blues/rock, hard rock, techno, electro, noise, doom, ambience (and so forth).

The Dillinger Escape Plan are responsible for a massive progression since they are all highly education and highly trained jazz musicians. They blended the idea of structure-less free jazz with dissonant jazz scales and patterns combined with intensely complex rhythm and time signature changes. See their album ‘Calculating Infinity’ – everything after that became more structured and easier to digest.

Anyway while no one has quite reached that level since, I believe the genre continually progresses and rewards experimentation rather than rehashing old generic concepts in more restrictive forms of music like thrash, death metal or punk. Bands like Genghis Tron (Cloak of Love EP) have utilised electronic influences to new levels. Cephalic Carnage have blended many styles of metal and punk with rock and psudeo-jazz. Nasum introduced huge walls of noise with massively thick multi-layered guitar textures. Pig Destroyer incorporates a large range of influences, refusing to stick to one riff for more than ten seconds – it all goes on.

The bottom line is, I love this genre because I interpret it as extremely flexible musically and free from a lot of the silly social and cultural associations of metal (satan, obsession with gore and brutality) and hardcore (obsessions with being tough). The lyrical content is usually rooted in the social, cultural, political and the philosophical rather than meaningless drivel about satan.

I could happily go on but I’m at work and should technically be working. However if you do want to discuss interpretations of the genre then I’m more than happy to accommodate!

Thanks again for the input. This mix is just to give a few people some tracks to listen to until we do all our new songs professionally in January/February. I have 3 other tracks (much less linear in structure/content) that I'll be mixing based off this track.
 
Yeah, the Satanism thing was teh Sabbs trying to get noticed & then they were stuck with it - so to the rest of the genre & all subsequent progeny.
I truly dislike '57s.
At least the singer isn't squealing & singing falsetto like so many HEAVY dudes. I always get a giggle out of heavy music with high pitched vox. I know some of the greats do it but it's not necessarily what made them great.
So low-socio-economically speaking post moderninsm manifests itself in the wholesale adoption of hip hop culture & its disaffected values except for the glaring lack of irony or conscious process! Ha, I loined sumphink today.
Ah, jazz - responsible for some of the best & worst in RnR. Spinal Tap Phase 2 ALWAYS comes to mind.
Do you drop into Julian Cope's Head Heritage site? He MP3 streams/previews some excellent examples of dissonance in rock.
I'll drop in for a listen to the remix/rerecording.
 
I love my Ozzy-era Sabbath, but the whole occult thing was just silly. Unnecessary if you will.

I actually think I used one 58 and one 57 for guitars... Vocals we went with a 58. Snare 57.

I cant deal with the ultra-highs, they kill me. That being said I cant really deal with the cookie monsters either. My favourite vocalists are probably Maynard (Tool), Mike Patton (Faith No More / Mr. Bungle) and Cedric (The Mars Volta). They're anything but typical.

Do you drop into Julian Cope's Head Heritage site? He MP3 streams/previews some excellent examples of dissonance in rock.

Nope but I will now. Check out that Dillinger album. If nothing else it's unique.

I'll just be tweaking this mix - as I said it's just a little demo to tide people over til we record professionally in a few months. If it ends up sounding drastically better I'll post it, otherwise you can hear it with our other sonic abortions on http://www.myspace.com/killacelebritygrind when its mashed and compressed by their server.

Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback - and more is still welcome.
 
Haha most dont. No dramas there.

Greg: We're not going to use triggers when we record professionally but the kit will sound infinitely better. As I said the skins are begging to be thrown out, which I think accounts for the muddy kick and shitty snare. If the kick still sounds horrible, then triggers it is (but I hate the things).
I do to, but for this genre, you're gonna have to use them if you want anything that sounds good. Get someone to show your drummer how to tune his kit, and record your own samples for the triggers. That way you can still use your own crappy sound, but it will be triggered for clarity. ;)


We're a three piece so we dont have a bassist. However I'm a bassist and might record bass for the tracks anyway. If we cant have kicks then we might as well have some kind of bottom end.
It needs bass.

Tame the guitars - IE: less harsh/bright?
Yes. They're ear-piercing, and not in a good way.

Vocals arent overpowering? Beautifully melodic no doubt.
The vocals are total shit, but they are what they are. If you like them, then rock on. :)

Thanks for your advice!

You're welcome.
 
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