Why can’t I replicate the sound of commercial recordings?

Thanks for all of the responses. I kept it a bit vague because I was confused that I couldn't replicate the eq and space of a simple kick\snare sound. I'm not trying to recreate the song. But if I cant get passed the minimal drums sounds, I am screwed. Most of what I will be recording are only vocals and direct bass or guitar. Possibly mic'd guitar. The drums, piano, synths, etc will all be vst instruments, so there is not much mic'ing going on in the studio. My room is my basement but i recently bought acoustic foam for walls and corner foam bass traps (which are probably not very effective at all).

My way of thinking is if i can sonically match some of my favorite recordings, ones that sound great in my room, then my songs should sound good on the outside. That may be a flawed thought process. I will post a short passage soon and post the link shortly.

Drums are likely the toughest thing you can replicate. You can change amp settings/room/guitar, but you can never duplicate a drum kit and the room it was recorded in. Not to mention the player.

Hell, I have never heard the same snare drum sound the same with different players. Tuning, approach, mics...

I assume you are using a drum program. There are many tricks to get them to work well, but it not simple. Some are way better than others. The stock drums on most DAW's will get you a basic beat. Nowhere near approaching the real feel of a drummer that the expensive ones do. And then that IMO is not so cool. Nothing like a great drummer recorded in a room that sounds great for the situation and the right mics to capture the performance. That is not easy or cheap.
 
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I'm not trying to recreate the song. But if I cant get passed the minimal drums sounds, I am screwed.

Do you mind saying why...?
I mean...there's nothing wrong in trying to recreate a sound or feeling of some music you love...but honestly, considering your setup (DI, mostly VSTi, etc) that you're working with, and that probably those original sounds were NOT gotten that way, you may not hit the mark at all...but still no reason to feel like you'll be screwed because of it.
Just get on with making some music...make your own sound. ;)

I rarely even bother with reference tracks, or if I do, it's just to get an overall idea of tonal balances, etc...but never as my target for my own mixing.
You don't need to copy those sounds exactly to feel like you're on the right track with your own music.

Is there some really specific reason you feel you must get them exact (or you're screwed)...?
Oh...and since you're kinda hanging everything on the kick drum sound (why?)...are those also VSTi samples, or a live recorded kit in your space?
If they are samples...man, there's like a million kick drum sounds you can dial through with most drum applications...just get more sample packs. :)
Which drum application are you using if not a live kit?
 
Drum overheads are usually condensers, anything from Audix F15 to Shure SM81 to AKG C360, or even iFet and U87 in a mid/side arrangement. I use AKG C535EB and C1000S in live situations quite regularly. Then there's the odd bluegrass band that just has to use their AT4030 on stage. Whether live or in the studio, condenser or dynamic, there are ways to manage (not necessarily eliminate) bleed.

I can see that on the overheads. Why someone would bring a a U87 on stage has me scratching my head though. :)

On the bleed, I personally like it as long as it's a good room and the band is incredibly tight. I like the ambience and natural reverb it can give. But that's just me. :D

Edit : just out of curiosity what are some of the biggest rooms you've worked. I've done some smaller clubs (200 people max) and a few outdoor gigs.
 
You could use an inline pad in that situation if necessary.
If you happen to have one on hand that passes phantom power. That's honestly just another possible point of failure, though. That's another issue with condensers on stage: phantom power is just another thing to go wrong in the heat of battle, and the pops that can happen if something gets unplugged or goes weird...

Mostly I was just trying to agree with bsg that the reason people seem to think condensers pick up more room sound is that they normally place them further from the source than they might with a dynamic. If you can get right up on them, they work about the same.
 
If you can get right up on them, they work about the same.

Kind like the principle of signal to noise ratio.
;)

But back to the OP's original question. I interpreted that as not trying to specifically sound like a particular artist, but rather to get proffesional results. IE:; sound like the record or whats on the radio.
It really comes down to practice and getting good at the craft. Once someone masters that, they can make a record in a shitty room with a radio shack mic and a 4track and it will still sound great.

I'm still working on it. Got a ways to go.

:D
 
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I can see that on the overheads. Why someone would bring a a U87 on stage has me scratching my head though. :)

On the bleed, I personally like it as long as it's a good room and the band is incredibly tight. I like the ambience and natural reverb it can give. But that's just me. :D

Edit : just out of curiosity what are some of the biggest rooms you've worked. I've done some smaller clubs (200 people max) and a few outdoor gigs.

Yeah, iFet and U87 were in the studio. But I often see what appear to be Shure KSM32 on overheads for major artist concerts.

I also like some bleed live, but not too much and not the wrong kinds. Dealing with it live helps train one for dealing with it in the studio.

I've mixed a few 500-1200 capacity theater shows, but I've mixed hundreds of shows in 100-300 capacity clubs. The small places are much harder due to the smaller stages and closer walls around stage. I've done some outdoor gigs up to several thousand.
 
Yeah, iFet and U87 were in the studio. But I often see what appear to be Shure KSM32 on overheads for major artist concerts.

I also like some bleed live, but not too much and not the wrong kinds. Dealing with it live helps train one for dealing with it in the studio.

I've mixed a few 500-1200 capacity theater shows, but I've mixed hundreds of shows in 100-300 capacity clubs. The small places are much harder due to the smaller stages and closer walls around stage. I've done some outdoor gigs up to several thousand.

Cool that would be fun to do the theater gigs. :)
I think the smaller places are tougher too. Or rather thought so at the time. I haven't done it in a long time, and in my time it was big amps and that was a chore.
In addition to dealing with the room, which changed depending on the band's draw, you had to deal with stage volume blending in with FOH.
Thankfully smaller amps and quieter stage volumes are the current fashion. :)
 
The big problem I have with smaller gigs is poorly maintained gear that was underspecified at the time it was installed. Most of the gigs I mix are small enough that the stage sound IS the FOH, and I'm perfectly cool with that as long as the PA has enough enough headroom to get the vocal up over the din. Unfortunately about half of the time it's actually not. I have tricks that can help a lot, but I'm not real afraid to blow up your bar's shitty little powered mixer or pop the horns in your cute little pawn shop cabs. I figure that just forces you to upgrade so it'll be better next time I have to deal with it. :)

But anyway, in those cases there are no mics on the drums because it's just a waste of headroom. I often say "You know it's actually loud when the guitars are so loud you can't hear the drums". It's a feature.

On bigger stages (with decent systems) the company Ive been working with usually provides this stubby little Octavia condenser for an overhead. It's actually pretty great and a lot of times that and the kick drum is all I really need. I take some time finding the right spot just like when recording and I rarely need any kind of close mics.

A lot of the recording I do is live in one room. It's not a real big room. There's some space to keep things separate, but things bleed. It has never occurred to me that swapping out my overheads for dynamics would help that. Mostly because it won't. All it would do is lose some detail on the cymbals and probably add noise. Instead I do the best I can with placement and distance, and embrace that bleed as free reverb for the whole band.

Vocals are often a lot more sensitive. Like for grindcore bands I'll just stick an EV Co7 in front of them right there in the room. They're going to eat it and growl and bowl and scream and bleed won't be an issue. But that's the right sound for that session. In more serious recordings I usually want the vocalist back from the mic a bit, so the S/N is always worse and I'd rather either move them out of the room or overdub later. I could probably find a way to make it work. The one time I tried it, it was at the band's request, and there was a limit to what we could do with the voice before it started to fuck with the cymbals. If I had caught that in tracking, there are a number of things I could have done. Probably just move Bob. It's a great record anyway.
 
I have a good setup. I7; 32 go ram, all sad drives. I was using Samplitude Pro X 3 but am moving slowly back to Cakewalk. I am at a point in life that I want to re-record many of my songs from the 80s and 90s simply because they all sound so rough because of my limitations of the time.

One song seems to sound quite a bit like Voices Carry by Til Tuesday sonically. So, I listen to the tracks and get it close to what I think it sounds like. I then play Voices Carry and mine sounds anemic. I can’t explain it. My snare sounds similar but was dry. Theirs has a reverb on it but stays crisp. When I add reverb to my snare, it adds a low end trail. I tried to use a new to bring it up but doesn’t sound right.

Am I doing this the right way by comparing to the original? I am not copying their song by any means. I am just trying to emulate their sound. This is a lot harder than it seems. I am using Waves plugins to do this. Any help will be appreciated.
.

Lack of knowledge, and experience mostly, room, and gear also. Fortunately there is a ton of information out there on the interwebs now. Plus you can practice mixing by using free downloadable song tracks.
 
I am back and am leaving a link of a clip of the commercially released song followed by a clip of my song. I do not need to replicate the released song. I am just trying to match the song, sonically. If my mix can sound anything like theirs, then I am on the right track. I am talking about quality and nothing about the actual song itself. I seem to have a problem balancing everything and keeping things from clashing. I suppose I have to practice more with the eq settings to get everything in their own space. My song is only the drums, bass and keys. No vocals or guitars. I am more concerned with getting the drum sounds right.

Go here if you want to listen and it would be great to get any advice or ideas to move forward.

Attempt to match sonics by JWL | Free Listening on SoundCloud
 
Well...just focusing on the drums, since that's what you're focusing on...right off the bat, they are like two totally different sounding kits.
I mean...it's got nothing to do with the EQ or the level balance or compressions...or any other plugs...the drum kits just sound different from the get-go, and a good of that is the kit's themselves, what they are made of, how they are tuned, the heads used....and the room they are in.

So before you get to EQ and all the plugs...focus on just the raw sound. Find the drum sounds that match what you want as close as possible...then you can use the plugs and stuff to tweak them even more.
Trying to just "process" them into submission to make them sound alike is not easy even for someone skilled, and those people would start with the right sounding drums to begin with...but for you it will be harder, so get the right sounding drums.
I mean...it would be like trying to match an electric guitar sound...but you pull up an acoustic guitar sample, and then try to EQ/process it to sound like an electric. OK...I'm being extreme, but just to make a point.

The commercial song, the kick is fatter and so is the snare...yours, the kick is very clicky and the snare dry and too much wire.
 
All that Miro said, however, if you pulled the kick level down a bit, your drum kit would sound a lot better than the commercial song. Not that it would match, but it would sound nicer than theirs.

To get the rest of the song to feel anything like theirs, it goes back to what I mentioned earlier about arrangement and instrumentation. Theirs has so much going on with instruments, layers, stereo spread, and all. it really isn't easy to compare yours to theirs. Even if you're just concerned about the drums, it's all about context and how the drums sit with everything else.
 
I am back and am leaving a link of a clip of the commercially released song followed by a clip of my song. I do not need to replicate the released song. I am just trying to match the song, sonically. If my mix can sound anything like theirs, then I am on the right track. I am talking about quality and nothing about the actual song itself. I seem to have a problem balancing everything and keeping things from clashing. I suppose I have to practice more with the eq settings to get everything in their own space. My song is only the drums, bass and keys. No vocals or guitars. I am more concerned with getting the drum sounds right.

Go here if you want to listen and it would be great to get any advice or ideas to move forward.

Attempt to match sonics by JWL | Free Listening on SoundCloud

We finally have something worth discussing here.

What do you mean when you say "I'm just trying to match the song sonically"? Sonically in this case is a bunch of elements working together. Are you talking about EQ? About space? About levels? About wideness/openess/width?

If you're talking about all of it, its best to break this down into individual components and examine them one at a time.

Getting space here doesn't just have to do with EQ. There are dozens of factors that culminate in our perception of sonic 'space'. There's a lot going on here, even with the scaled back version you re-created. Some things we need to look into are bussing, imaging, harmonics/saturation, transient shaping, envelope management, modulation (namely chorusing and doubling), multi-band compression, delay, and parallel signal management. That's what first jumps out at me here. Those are audible differences I can hear immediately. You may not know what some of that stuff is, and that's ok. Just say so.

The first question: What tools do you have available for an analyzer? And do you know how to use them?
Next question: Do you understand the fundamentals of EQ and compression? How comfortable are you with basic controls?

Now that I've heard the track, your snare is possibly in the ballpark, and I think your kick is pretty close. I agree with the choice of sample.

Next we need to see exactly what you're using to create this, and you need to post a dry recording of the drums. This is NOT about gear - but you've got to tell us what you're using for monitors and what your mixing environment is like. There are some things at first, that it won't do us much good explaining, because you simply might not be able to hear them. And again thats ok. Rome wasn't built in a day. This is a slow process where knowledge is gained and applied with a shit load of trial, error, and practice :)

This is a good project to try and emulate for training purposes. I think you picked something realistic and not too complex.
 
Thanks again for the responses everyone, especially jkuehlin with all of the details you mentioned. My goal in re-recording mNy of my older songs is to make them more polished than when I recorded them with an old Foster X15, a Rockman x100 for vocals, bass and guitar, and an old crappy Kong RX11. Back then, I was amazed I could create a full song using this stuff. I certainly wasn’t paying any attention to the overmodulation of the drum machine that is so distorted, playing pre programmed patterns at times. So, I want to record these songs with the same instruments I used at the time so they sound the same. Yes, they are dated but so are the songs. These aren’t modern remakes. I went out and purchased a Korg DW6000 keyboard, Kong M1R, the RD11 vst, etc. when I say I want to match the other song sonically, I just mean I want the eq and overall tone of my song to be similar. I think I felt that at the time I wrote it, which was about 3 years after theirs was released. I wasn’t teying to emulate them. I don’t know any other song by them. I just Hess’s their song and wished mine could sound as polished.

I have been recording for 34 years. First with the Foster, then later on a Tascam 488 cassette 8 track and finally Cakewalk. I always understood the theory of getting the instruments in their own eq space so instrument don’t step on each other but I really don’t know how to apply it effectively. I have basic understanding of eq and compression and have used them. It’s at times. Mostly, I just turn knobs and go with what sounds good. Not very scientific. I don’t really know what tools I have for analyzing the sounds. Give me an example of what that would be. I was going to buy some behringer mic that was supposed to analyze a room to see if it is too boomy or whatever. I have not done that. I am using Monoprice Pro monitors. I never would have considered them but I read so many reviews of how good they were, I bought them. I had Alesis One monitors in the past. I believe these sound better. These aren’t great but I was trying to stay I the $300 range. They are far better than the Fischer boom box I used in the 80s, lol.

I will post another mo3 with the dry drums. My basement is 12 x 24. My desk is in the middle of the 12’ wall. I have 4 x 2x4 2” foam panels behind the desk behind the speakers, I have the two corners lined floor to ceiling with 4” wide foam bass traps though I assume they don’t do much.

I never realized how complex mixing and balancing is. Years ago, it all sounded great. When did I become so in tune to now it should sound? Look for my next post with link to new mo3.

Thanks again everyone.

So, I am not looking O be famous. That dream went poof many years ago. I am only looking for decent sounding mixes of these new recordings.
 
Ok. Gotcha. I understand. lol - Those mono price monitors will get the job done. I bought a pair of 5's and a pair of 8's to review them when they went on sale four years ago. I did a couple test mixes on them then ended up giving them to friends, but I used them enough to confirm that they're not bad :)

So. Down to the basics. This is an analyzer. Anything that shows you a graphical representation of what your audio looks like. Low frequencies are on the left, higher ones on the right. This is the one Waves makes but any of them will do.

paz-analyzer.jpg

What you would do:

1) Open the session you shows us the example recording from.
2) Create a stereo audio track and load the reference track in your DAW as a stereo wav file.
3) Insert your analyzer on the track.
4) Now draw a very short loop around the snare drum. The analyzer will show you what the snare drum sounds like.
5) Leaving the analyzer on the reference track, insert a second instance of the same analyzer on your snare drum track.
6) Draw a very short loop around your snare drum hit.
7) Compare the graphs of the reference snare with your snare. The difference between the two graphs (the one on your reference track vs the one on your snare drum track) will be EQ frequencies to consider changing to get them to sound just a little more similar.

Obviously in the reference track, other things like bass guitar and vocals will affect the graphic display, but if you watch it, you'll quickly figure out which frequencies are affected by the kick, snare, and which ones aren't. Also, if there are parts of the songs that have isolated drums, those are great to areas to use your analyzer on to study the frequency curves.

EQ is your first basic step... if you're not fully comfortable with a basic graphical EQ - this would be a good place to start. Once you have a good handle on EQ, you'll be able to use the analyzer to what EQ moves to make on different sources :)

Hope this helps a little.
 
Sample 2 - for review only by JWL | Free Listening on SoundCloud


I uploaded the same sample except this time, without any effects. Only the snare had a reverb on it in the original upload. Here is what is on this recording:

Yamaha RX11 Drum Machine vsti (kick, snare, hi hat
Vita Bass vsti (included with Samplitude Pr X3)
Korg DW 6000 synth patch recorded directly into audio interface

The sounds you hear straight from the original sound without any processing.

Audio interface is a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40
 
This is nonsense.

Hmm.. Not nonsense for every situation. The size of the venue plays a big part in what is used however. Not sure a condenser would be my first choice in an untreated club with a 20 x 12' stage in the corner of a bar with 12' ceilings...

Though I just recently did that but it was a live recording. The sound system didn't necessarily need the KSM 1541's, I did for my recording. I surely wouldn't install expensive mics in a club environment within reach of crazy drummers... lol
 
Not nonsense for every situation.

Right.

RFR's comment is being taken to mean you would "never" use condensers in live situations, but that's not what he said...and also, we're probably talking about clubs/bars, not large stage setups in more controlled acoustic environments where you could also bring in condenser mics for some things.

RFR is right...your typical club/bar band will rarely use condensers. Dynamics are just easier to deal with in shitty rooms, and they are way more durable. I mean, do you really want to bring your $1000 tube condenser to a bar gig? :eek: :p
 
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