Who here mixes LIVE music?

BBB

Member
I'm trying to figure out the most essential PA components to getting a good sound. In particular, we've got a small PA and I need to figure out where to upgrade first and what is going to give us the most "bang for the buck."

One thing I'm looking for is a good web resource for PA contruction. The other thing I'm looking for is your input on the next step in improving our PA.


Here's what we've got:

Mono 6 channel mixer (no effects loop, no channel eq, no trim control, no inserts, just level control).
300W Amp (at best)
Small vocal speakers (not even 12") with stands
SM58's with cables/stands

Here's what we're doing:

Playing 1/2 a gym.
The band includes guitar, keys, drums and vox. Only vox are run through the PA.

The system we have is actually adequate for its purpose. However, I want to work on getting a better sound.

My first thought is to get about a 800W amp and at least 15" speakers to get a fuller sound. Another thought is to get a mixing board with better pre's and an effects loop for delay, etc. (we're going for a modern, possibly pop and rock, sound), such as a Mackie 1402. Graphic EQ? Monitors? I wish.

Like I mentioned, what we're looking for is "bang for the buck." Stuff to increase our sound quality. Alternatively, we're looking for "essential" equipment that may be necessary for getting a better sound.

I may be able to get a budget of around under $1k depending on how I rationalize the purchases.

Thus, any reccommendations for one piece of equipment that you'd recommend would be most helpful. Also, recommendations for resources would also be helpful.


Thanks,
-B
 
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My humble opinion:
1)Mixer with more features
2)Subs
3)More power (for the subs)
A cheap & large help in any gym with crappy acoustics (most all of them!)
Don't aim speakers directly at flat walls! If the acoustics really suck, put all your speakers on one side so you only have one sound source. Sounds silly, but it works.
 
Thanks Monte.

Anyone else with votes as to their single most valuable tool in running live sound.


(Yeah, I know this is homerecording.com, not livemixing.com, but thought we have enough sound gurus to get some tips. Too bad there isn't a live performance/sound reinforcement section. Wonder if I should cross post this in any other subgroups...)
 
hey!

I do live mixing for a club I co-run. With sub-woofers, you'll also need a crossover. You'll need a snake if you want the mixer to be FOH. How are the keys going to be amplified? No monitoring for the vocalists? You'll have helluva time getting any kind of sound with a mixer like that :). You will need at least some kind of EQ and compressors/gates on the mics. And the biggest problem are drums. With the current amplification a good drummer will play over the speakers with no problem. We have 2x250 active speakers in our reh-room and our drummer plays over them even when he's playing "quietly" :). In the club we have 4K of PA amplification for about 200 people and it's just on the verge of distortion....

Keijo
 
Hey, I do alot of live-mixing... Mostly for bands, so everything is setup when I arrive. If I mix an entire show, we rent all of the equipement, they set up the system for us, and all I have to do is put mics and mix it. So only the real fun part of the job actually. :) And I really don't know anything about setting it up. Have some courses planned on it. Well... We'll see. I'll give you a link to a live-mixing forum where you'll get ALOT of answers, tomorrow at work. Remind me if I forget...
 
first, you might ask yourself, what it is you don't like about your PA now. If is not enough low end...then maybe some better speakers...too dull sounding...same thing, maybe your speakers, but you might need some EQ on the board too, to help *crisp* things up.

I might look at some used stuff, if you have access to any. You could save some significant bucks.

I setup a small PA for our church with the JBL tr125 speakers (a 15" and a cheapy horn), the small Alesis 24 mixer, and the RA100 power amp. Our church is about the size of a half basketball court, and in there, it can get plenty loud.....not REALLY loud...but crankin' pretty good. ...a lot louder than we ever need it. We run 4 mics, a stereo keyboard, an acoustic guitar, and a direct in bass guitar, and sometimes a drum machine....works great. Also has stereo inputs for our CD, cassette players, some sends, returns, etc. I think if you were to upgrade to something even as small as this (and don't let the power amp fool you, but you could go larger there), you would see a definate improvement in your PA sound. This aint no killer PA, for sure...but flexible and INEXPENSIVE. Use your current stuff for maybe a monitor system, maybe. At least, go to a store and see what you can get for your money...but more so...so you can have a potential listen to a small system if they have one set up. Check out other groups and see what they have in your desired size range...blah, blah, blah......(Before you know it, you'll be calling Clair Bros. good luck)
 
Re: hey!

warlock said:
I do live mixing for a club I co-run. With sub-woofers, you'll also need a crossover. You'll need a snake if you want the mixer to be FOH. How are the keys going to be amplified? No monitoring for the vocalists? You'll have helluva time getting any kind of sound with a mixer like that :). You will need at least some kind of EQ and compressors/gates on the mics. And the biggest problem are drums. With the current amplification a good drummer will play over the speakers with no problem. We have 2x250 active speakers in our reh-room and our drummer plays over them even when he's playing "quietly" :). In the club we have 4K of PA amplification for about 200 people and it's just on the verge of distortion....

Thanks Keijo.

We have a dedicated keyboard amp. No monitoring.

Yeah. The mixer is a weak link. We can't use any effects or EQ. I was always curious about the usefulness of effects I use in the studio in a live application. For example, using compression on vox. Since we're going for a more polished/produced sound, I would think compressors would be helpful on the vox.

Then again, aside from the mixer, the power amp and speakers are a weak link. Of course we want a nice, full sound, so we probably need better speakers and amp. However, we don't want to blow people's eardrums out. Yet we're fortunate because the drummer actually doesn't overpower our current setup (this is a rare and lucky situation).

Matt
 
Roel said:
We'll see. I'll give you a link to a live-mixing forum where you'll get ALOT of answers, tomorrow at work. Remind me if I forget...

Reminder #1.

Thanks Roel.
 
mixmkr said:
first, you might ask yourself, what it is you don't like about your PA now. If is not enough low end...then maybe some better speakers...

Yup.

too dull sounding...same thing, maybe your speakers,

Yup.

but you might need some EQ on the board too, to help *crisp* things up.
Yup.

Heh. Good advice in trying to find the weakest link and fixing that first. In our current setup, everything appears to be the weakest link. :rolleyes:

I might look at some used stuff, if you have access to any. You could save some significant bucks.

Yeah. Especially speakers. I'm more hesitant to go used with the mixer or power amp in that it can be more difficult to determine if it was ab-used.

I setup a small PA for our church with the JBL tr125 speakers (a 15" and a cheapy horn), the small Alesis 24 mixer, and the RA100 power amp.

No kidding? The RA100 was adequate? Wow.

Use your current stuff for maybe a monitor system, maybe.

Good point.

At least, go to a store and see what you can get for your money...but more so...so you can have a potential listen to a small system if they have one set up. Check out other groups and see what they have in your desired size range...blah, blah, blah......(Before you know it, you'll be calling Clair Bros. good luck)

Thanks. I gotta figure out where to invest first. New mixer (considering the Mackie CFX 12 if I can justify the price) or power amp/speakers. Probably will hit the mixer first, because the amp/speakers won't help much unless we can mix more stuff through them. Been to the stores many times. Wanted the group's input because salesmen are generally biased.


Matt
 
Live equipment

Hey B,
I know that I'm late with this post. Here is what I use on this great little 3 piece band I mix for.
Mackie 1604, Dod Dual 15 eq,Dod Dual 31 eq, Alesis Microverb, Behringer Dualfex Pro, 2- Alesis 3630 compressor gates.
Crown 1000, and 2000 power amps.
I have a set of Fenders with 2-15" and a horn , and 4 monitors
with 12" speakers and a horn.16x4 150' snake

I use 6 mic drums, mic the guitar, go direct on bass.
I have had muscians come up to me and ask me where's the sub?
They think that I have one hid somewhere.
I get such a rich sound, great lows,and crisp highs.
I give credit to the dualfex pro...It makes all the difference.

Gidman
 
BBB, my experience with live sound gear has been that used power amps are a better way to go. On a moderately powered amp, even if BOTH output transformers went, that would be around $400 to repair, and essentially, you would have a brand new amp. The money saved buying used makes up for it if you can get some use out of it first. And chances of both going out is pretty small.

Used speakers on the other hand are VERY hard to tell if they were abused. Plus, if they are cheap speakers, they will blow again and again and again. Under powering them will cause them to blow. Over powering them will cause them to blow. If the reconing guy sucks and doesn't use good parts to recone, they will blow...:)

Man, a decent live PA is bucks friends. No cheap way to get good sound live. If you think good gear for recording makes a difference in the outcome, a adequately powered mid quality PA makes a HUGE difference in live sound. I won't even involve myself in recommendations because nobody would like the price tag I am talking .....;)

Ed
 
Ed-

Have you or anyone you know used the Yorkville stuff? A friend of mine did a big concert at Firstar Center in Cincy and used their speakers and liked the results. Do you have any opinion on it?

Just wondering.
H2H
 
Sonusman:

That's good to know about the amps. It will give me more piece of mind when buying used.

Yeah. A good PA is bucks. I think our budget for the year is $5k. Unfortunately, that's not just for the PA. It's also for advertising, other equipment, paid musicians (if necessary), etc.

It's going to be difficult approaching the "powers-that-be" to request more PA equipment. I can see them saying, "It sounds good enough right now. Why do you need $5k in more equipment?"


-B
 
Re: Live equipment

Gidman:

Yeah. That sounded like a reasonably priced system. What does the dualfex pro do for you that you think makes such a difference?

-B
 
dualfex

B,
Its a sonic maximizer like BBE ... Dualfex pro is around $100
Its the best 100 bucks I have put into the system.
To get any better, I would need subs,an amp, if the subs are not powered, and a 3 way crossover. Plus thats more stuff to carry and set up. I guess it all depends on what your after and happy with.

This is off their site:
http://www.behringer.com
VSP (Variable Sound Processing) Circuitry

There are three controls for high frequencies. Our further-developed VSP circuitry allows you to precisely adjust the balance between enhancer and exciter effects with the "Process" control. "Tune" sets the cutoff frequency of the high pass filter and determines which portion of the audio spectrum will be affected. The "High Mix" control allows you to determine the amount of effect signal at the output.

Low end is the foundation of any mix. With the BEHRINGER DUALFEX PRO's bass processor you can create real kickin' power. In addition, the "Bass Mode" switch lets you choose between soft and tight sounds. The stereo surround processor allows extreme widening of the spatial effect. Massive sound improvement and unbelievable punch is only a DUALFEX PRO away.


Gidman
 
BBB said:
Here's what we've got:

Mono 6 channel mixer (no effects loop, no channel eq, no trim control, no inserts, just level control).
300W Amp (at best)
Small vocal speakers (not even 12") with stands
SM58's with cables/stands

Here's what we're doing:

Playing 1/2 a gym.
The band includes guitar, keys, drums and vox. Only vox are run through the PA.

The system we have is actually adequate for its purpose. However, I want to work on getting a better sound.


B,
Check ebay, yahoo, and all other sites for auctions...sometimes you can get a decent deal or two.
Locally I would get a set of decent full range speakers, a powered mixer at least 600w, with good effects and eq.
Good drum mics, I use an akg d112 for the kick, a sm 57 clone for the snare and a chepo 3 set of cad drum mics.Mic/go direct out on everything, but don't push it too hard, especially in a gym.(I hope this isn't your only gig, the acoustics suck) Use the monitor out to the amp you now have and use your current speakers for monitors. You maybe have spent $1500 or less.

Gidman
 
gidman:

Right re dualfex. I might try my BBE on the mix to see if I can get similar results.

We've got a few good local used shops for amps/speakers. I'll probably cross reference their prices with eBay (one has passive Event 20/20's for $500!:eek: ).

Good advice re current amp and speakers for monitors... Might not mic the drums yet. We don't want to blow people's ears out.

And yeah, the gym thing is our only "gig." Once a week. It's a charity case on my part and I'm trying to help them out the best I can without unnecessarily spending too much of their cash.


-B
 
Roel said:
We'll see. I'll give you a link to a live-mixing forum where you'll get ALOT of answers, tomorrow at work. Remind me if I forget...

Roel?

Reminder #3.
 
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