What happens during vocal processing

mail2sandy42

New member
Hi All,
Iam a musician who has very less experience in sound editing. I have always found it difficult to process my vocals as i just dont know what happens there. All i do is tweek the EQs, add some delays & dynamics.
Can anybody tell me what an engineer does to process vocals. I understand that the processing depends on what we want and cannot be generalized. But i just want to understand the process involved during vocal treatment. Some trusted VSTs for dynamics, delays, reverbs.

Below are some specific doubts :
1. Why should we use a limiter when we have dynamics.
2. How different is a compressor from above two.
3. Can we make a mono vocal track sound like a wide stereo track.
4. What are these pre-amps in VST. I always believed pre-amp is something that is used before the vocals in recorded into the PC.
5. Is it good to process vocals too much?
6. Should i have to follow a chain. i mean, Always add delays in the last or always add limiter before EQs or something like that.

Thanks in advance for your time...
 
Below are some specific doubts :
1. Why should we use a limiter when we have dynamics.

A limiter is a type of compressor, generally fast acting and high ratio.

2. How different is a compressor from above two.

Dynamics is a category of effects that affect levels. Limiters, compressors, gates and expanders are all included.

3. Can we make a mono vocal track sound like a wide stereo track.

Yes. Apply a stereo effect of some sort, like ambience.

4. What are these pre-amps in VST. I always believed pre-amp is something that is used before the vocals in recorded into the PC.

A hardware preamp isn't an effect per se, it amplifies the voltage of a microphone's signal to a level that the rest of the path needs. However, you can use the controls of many preamps to alter the sound to some degree. I suppose VST preamps simulate the sound of preamps driven past their normal clean ranges.

5. Is it good to process vocals too much?

Well, too much is, by definition, too much. You can process the vocals as much as you deem necessary or desirable. There will always be someone who disagrees with your choices.

6. Should i have to follow a chain. i mean, Always add delays in the last or always add limiter before EQs or something like that.

You can use any order you want, but there are differences. I like to get the harmonic balance of my track where I want it before I add compression. That way if I make large adjustments the compressor isn't reacting to frequencies that are then attenuated. If you compress a vocal and then eq to compensate for proximity effect the compressor will be overreacting to lows and low-mids that aren't that present in the eqed signal, causing the mids and highs to bounce around in an odd way. If your tonal balance is good right out of the mic it may not be an issue. I would put delay last or on an aux.
 
@ Boulder Sound Guy:

Thanks for your detailed reply. Its been a great help. Really appreciated.

Do you mean to say, if dynamics properly used then we can avoid using Limiters, compressors, gates and expanders.

Something about EQs, Any idea what is the difference between parametric & paragraphic EQ. And what is the Q- Factor which seems to be used in almost every tutorials?
Got some fair idea about the difference from here - http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?t=23349
 
I am going to add on a little to what bouldersoundguy said....
I am going to address the vocal issue briefly...
Before you worry about processing it in the mix, Getting a good recording is the most important. Mic choice, its placement, the room you are recording it in, The preamp you use and interface. The least amount of processing you use the more natural you vocals will sound. Hopefully that is what we are looking for.
 
@ TheChikenMaster's :

How would you rate digi design's mbox with m-audio condenser mic. When you say mic placement & the room atmosphere, is it to get the best timber & level without having any reflections from the wall??
 
Never used them so cant tell you.
but mic placement is essential and the room you are in, it all shapes the final sound. Most people will tell you to get rid of all ambience in a room and no reflections. Record in a dead room, or prevent the mic from receiving any reflections from behind it. Its a subjective art. I personally dont record in a dead room. and I dont baffle the mic either, more natural that way, IMHO.
 
I understand that the processing depends on what we want and cannot be generalized. But i just want to understand the process involved during vocal treatment.
You just said it can't be generalized and then asked for a generalization. It can't be generalized. There is no process.

1. Why should we use a limiter
On vocals? I have never had to use a limiter while mixing. Some might want one while recording if the singer sometimes yells out of nowhere. It guards against clipping on the way in.
2. How different is a compressor from above two.
Two? You lost me there... A compressor usually has a stronger impact on tone than a limiter (depending on how you set it). This is common on vocal tracks.
3. Can we make a mono vocal track sound like a wide stereo track.
Sorta'... why not record a second vocal instead?
5. Is it good to process vocals too much?
No. From a purely English semantics standpoint, the word "too" in your sentence indicates flat-out that the processing was not a good thing. Is it good to add "a buttload" of processing to vocals? Sometimes. Maybe. Depends. Is it good to add "too much" processing? Never.
6. Should i have to follow a chain. i mean, Always add delays in the last or always add limiter before EQs or something like that.
No.
 
oh my.... there are many posts here about recording vocals, most of them advise proper choice of mic, gain stageing (sp) and performance. You may have fallen into the catch-all "vocal treatment" mind set. I offer the re-cap of so many posts on this topic.

Decide what you want to express through your vocal track(s)... Enya, Metallica, Norah Jones etc.

Choose appropriate microphone.

Do not overload your mic preamp.

Become trained on the use of compression.
 
Do you mean to say, if dynamics properly used then we can avoid using Limiters, compressors, gates and expanders.

Limiters, compressors, gates and expanders are dynamics processors. If the singer has good control and mic technique (natural dynamics) then dynamics processing may not be necessary.

Something about EQs, Any idea what is the difference between parametric & paragraphic EQ. And what is the Q- Factor which seems to be used in almost every tutorials?
Got some fair idea about the difference from here - http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthread.php?t=23349

A parametric eq lets you control filter parameters like center frequency and width. Paragraphic eqs are simply parametric eqs with a graph displaying response. Q is a measure of filter narrowness, essentially a different way of expressing bandwidth. A high-q filter is a narrow bandwidth filter.
 
I agree with others above…there’s no specific vocal processing process….every mix is different.

Not taking into account those cases where you are going for some very specific FX on the vocal…I think lots of DAW newbs tend to slather on the processing during mixing in an effort to fix what was not captured right during tracking…and most DAWs have way too many plugs available that can get newbs into trouble. For really good vocal tracks that sit well in a mix…9-out-of-10 times it comes from the mic/preamp and the performance during tracking …and not so much from processing after the fact.

I know this is the “home” recording forum, and lots of people feel that something like a $100 mic and a $200 pre is “high-end” enough for them, and granted, you can get decent results under certain conditions with lower budget stuff…but if your listening to some commercial tracks where the vocals sound absolutely killer and where you can almost feel the singer’s breath in your ear, and you’re wondering how come your vocals can’t get close to that…
…well, that stuff is often done with much higher-end mics and pres by studio pros who’ve been at it for many years. So if you try chasing that sound with a low budget front-end…you will quickly get fooled into believing that you need all kinds of processing after the fact in order to *make* your vocals sound that good…and it doesn’t often work out too well.
IOW…a high-end mic and pres DOES sound significantly better and makes tracking some stuff feel almost effortless. The tracks will just fall into place rather than need a ton of “massaging”…and I know, ‘cuz I’ve had to massage many a track when the tracking wasn’t too good! :D
 
…well, that stuff is often done with much higher-end mics and pres by studio pros who’ve been at it for many years...

You are so much kinder with your words than I am. :)

When I started playing in bands in the late 60's we had Gretsch drums, Zildjian cymbals, Gibson guitars and Fender amps, all by the time we were 15. Then a gig would come a long and we'd put a pa together from whatever crap we could scrounge with garbage mics. Nowadays I'd rather go on stage with a cheap set of drums and a killer pa.

That's the same trend as here on this forum. My mic, pre and compressor total about $8K. That's my front end. I got my computer for free and the one before that was $80. I'll bet I have the cheapest computer and most expensive front end on this site. I'll bet every noob here has a computer 10X as good as mine.

It really seems like a manifestation of the same thing we did 40 years ago with the disproportional drum/amp/guitar quality to pa quality.

I've said this before, if I made a studio the first thing I'd insist on would be a U87 (at least!) and get a free computer and whatever speakers from Goodwill, but noobs will spend lots on a 4GB RAM computer so they have zillions of plug ins to try and get their $100 mic to sound like a U87.

The mic is the main thing. My U87 sounds 95% the same through my Jensen Twin Servo 990 mic pre ($2500) as my Presonus BlueTube ($150). The 5% is worth the extra money though!

The mic is a transducer, the speakers being the others you need. And transducers will always affect the sound way more than the electronics in between them.

That's why I maintain there's been very little advancement in audio in the last 40 or so years - the transducers, the mics and speakers have barely changed.
 
My mic, pre and compressor total about $8K. That's my front end. I got my computer for free and the one before that was $80. I'll bet I have the cheapest computer and most expensive front end on this site. I'll bet every noob here has a computer 10X as good as mine.

:D

Yeah...folks get all worked up about the computers...then go for a cheap mic and preamp for a couple of hundred dollars.

My vocal chain isn't quite as much as yours...but close.
I just got what I now consider my new-best preamp (Groove Tubes SuPRE), coupled with my best tube mic (ADK TT/CE) which just got an upgraded capsule installed a week ago (TT 12-Au) that gives it a classic Telefunken C12 tone and now took my TT/CE to an even higher quality level from when it was stock. Right there I have about $4k invested, but I do have a couple of other high-end pres and a few other “almost as nice” mics.

I could probably sell a couple of my other pres and then get one super high-end pre to replace them, as I don’t use/need multiple pres too often…but it’s nice having different flavors, and this SuPRE has a lot to offer with its 3 impedance choices which give every mic three different vibes…and it also has good gain and headroom. Very clean and quiet preamp…built like a tank.
I almost wet my pants when I tested my upgraded TT/CE mic with the SuPRE. The sound really takes on that 3-D quality leaving nothing to be desired. I’m very happy with both the new capsule and the new preamp!

I know it’s not easy for people to drop that kind of $$$...I’m very lucky that I can at this point in my life (was a time I couldn’t)…but that really is the reality…higher-end gear just sounds much better in most cases.
 
but noobs will spend lots on a 4GB RAM computer so they have zillions of plug ins to try and get their $100 mic to sound like a U87.

The mic is the main thing. My U87 sounds 95% the same through my Jensen Twin Servo 990 mic pre ($2500) as my Presonus BlueTube ($150).

The mic is a transducer, the speakers being the others you need. And transducers will always affect the sound way more than the electronics in between them.

That's why I maintain there's been very little advancement in audio in the last 40 or so years - the transducers, the mics and speakers have barely changed.

Thanks these are great points and so true IMHO. U87s sound incredible, no matter how much you tweak cheap gear, underneath it sounds like "you get what you pay for." I listen to stuff recorded 30-40 years ago all the time, that sounds as good as anything ever done.
 
Hi mail2sandy42,
There are tons of different VST effects processors out there, and it's a bit more of a subjective debate then I want to participate in. However...

1. Why should we use a limiter when we have dynamics.
2. How different is a compressor from above two.

You don't need to use a limiter on vocals. Limiters are essentially the same as compressors, (they both lower the peaks of an audio track). But a limiter is used to squash then raise the level of the overall mix of the song so that it can be at a broadcast level. Compressors are more to taste and just even out the quieter and louder parts so that everything sounds a bit a bit closer to the same volume level. That way when your vocalist whispers and yells, both can be audible within the mix. Limiters just squash everything and tend to make things sound terrible if they aren't used properly.

3. Can we make a mono vocal track sound like a wide stereo track.
There are stereo spreader plugins. Usually vocals are pretty dead center though in a mix. You might get some occasional panning on backup vocals, but not many people try and make a mono vocal track sound stereo. If you wanted to, a good way would be to double the track (not copy and pasting, actually record the same part twice), and pan them hard left and right. You usually want to double your vocal tracks anyway, but most people will have them both in the center and just have one take a little quieter then the other.

4. What are these pre-amps in VST. I always believed pre-amp is something that is used before the vocals in recorded into the PC.
It is. Maybe it's an amp simulator?

5. Is it good to process vocals too much?
You can never really get too heavy on the comping and editing, because the process of it is actually meant to remove mistakes and errors on the vocalist's part. After that a little bit of tuning with autotune or melodyne (I mean a LITTLE), compression, EQ, delay and or reverb can go a long way. Always go to taste.

6. Should i have to follow a chain. i mean, Always add delays in the last or always add limiter before EQs or something like that.
Most important things first:
1. record without peaking the signal into a decent vocal mic
2. comp and edit out mistakes
3. tune
4. compress
5. eq
6. effects (reverb, delay)

All just my opinion though, there is a common way of doing things, but never a right way.
 
You can use any order you want, but there are differences. I like to get the harmonic balance of my track where I want it before I add compression. That way if I make large adjustments the compressor isn't reacting to frequencies that are then attenuated. If you compress a vocal and then eq to compensate for proximity effect the compressor will be overreacting to lows and low-mids that aren't that present in the eqed signal, causing the mids and highs to bounce around in an odd way. If your tonal balance is good right out of the mic it may not be an issue. I would put delay last or on an aux.


With vocals I usually "dynamic process" - "graphic equalize" - "echo"- "reverb"

Is that a bad order? and would you consider "dynamic process" a type of compression?
 
With vocals I usually "dynamic process" - "graphic equalize" - "echo"- "reverb"

Is that a bad order? and would you consider "dynamic process" a type of compression?


You may want to try EQ in front of the dynamics processing (compression/limiting).
Like if there is a lot of low-end boom in the track...that would tend to drive the compressor. But if you EQ that out first, the compressor can then react more favorably to the rest of the frequency spectrum in the track instead of just the one or two outstanding elements.

Of course...there's no absolute order AFA comp/EQ or EQ/comp.
The time-based (delay/reverb) stuff should go at the end...in most cases.
 
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