What to do about renders that do not sound like the DAW

The finished render is showing -2.5 peaks. The mix of wav's is analyzed at -15.2db in Lufs. Are these not supposed to be the same value at unity, master fader set at 0?

I think you are chasing something right now that you should not be chasing. Are your mixes sounding good? You can worry about the final later as that becomes a part of mastering.

My two cents, get your tracks in, start mixing and focusing on the sound. Make sure you are clipping anywhere ad you have some head room to let everything breath. After that, you can worry about final levels.
 
I have tried to replicate your problem with no success.

I loaded a random WAV into Reaper and measured its loudness.

I then rendered it as an MP3, and loaded it into Reaper, and measured the rendered files loudness.

They were identical.

Another thought that springs to mind is that maybe your master level is not set at 0.

r2.jpgr1.jpg
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "setup file". Assuming you made no changes to the default settings in Reaper........then I have to admit I'm stumped by what you describe.

If you want to......you could completely remove Reaper from your PC (I assume it's not a Mac?).......reinstall Reaper from online.......and start a completely new project using nothing from your current project to test with......making no changes to Reaper to start with. Essentially that should eliminate any "setup" issues that you may have created previously without knowing it.

Trying another DAW at this point is not the answer. Where do you live? As I've said before.....I bet an experienced Reaper user could solve your issue quickly if he could just see what you're doing from start to finish.

There's no need to do this. Reaper has a start up option which is "reset configuration to factory defaults".

I agree that trying another DAW is not the answer.
 
I did the same think as Gecko, and got the same result. Even did a stereo file, with each channel panned 100% left and right, then split the stereo to two mono files. BTW, both files had a maximum peak value of 0.0dB, just to take that out of the equation.

All faders were at 0.0 (track and master) with no plugins at all.

Attached below are the images.

I think I may have finally stumbled on an answer to your question.

When you render and have a peak reading of say -2.1dB that is maximum of the highest peak in the entire file. It could represent a single half of a wave that reached that maximum level.
LUFS calculations are not based on the maximum peak size. LUFS can be tracked by the momentary value (averaged over 400 ms), and by the short-term value (averaged over 3 seconds), or the integrated loudness is tracked and averaged over the entire length of your program. Meaning that if you are working on a three-minute song or a forty-five minute TV episode, the integrated LUFS is a single value that gives you the sum of loudness for your entire project. That 400 ms averaging (0.4 seconds) will integrate out any maximum peak, if adjacent peaks are lower.

So you could have a track which is basically -50dB silence, with a single snap at 0.0dB. Normalizing it will keep the single snap at 0. However, when you measure the LUFS momentary value, it will average that 0dB peak with .2 seconds of -50dB silence on either side for the momentary value, 3 seconds for the short term, and the integrated will probably be close to the -50dB if the track is long enough.

So, you cannot use the maximum peak size in Reaper's meter to determine the LUFS value. They are two different measurements completely. The Reaper meter is measuring the maximum instantaneous wave value in dBFS, so that you don't start to square off an input (hard clipping). See attached image. I normalize the file, and it actually hit +1.7dB on Reaper's meter. You can see the LUFS analysis is much lower. LUFS is not the same as dBFS!


Does that help?
 

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So, you cannot use the maximum peak size in Reaper's meter to determine the LUFS value. They are two different measurements completely. The Reaper meter is measuring the maximum instantaneous wave value in dBFS, so that you don't start to square off an input (hard clipping). See attached image. I normalize the file, and it actually hit +1.7dB on Reaper's meter. You can see the LUFS analysis is much lower. LUFS is not the same as dBFS!


Does that help?

The render meter is not in LUfs? Is it RMS or peak dbfs? Where is this indicated anywhere? So, the render meter and the main meter are not in the same scale, hmmm?

Then I found another BIG one. My Dell has wavMaxx audio upgrade. This has an enhancer in a tray menu. It was selected to not load on start up. I had no idea it was still active in the background. It seems every play back of mp3 was being bass boosted then?So all my audio files are making boomy noises and yall cannot even hear it as I am.
 
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Then I found another BIG one. My Dell has wavMaxx audio upgrade. This has an enhancer in a tray menu. It was selected to not load on start up. I had no idea it was still active in the background. It seems every play back of mp3 was being bass boosted then?So all my audio files are making boomy noises and yall cannot even hear it as I am.

This highlights the importance of having an accurate and reliable monitoring system. While it is really useful to playback material on a variety of systems, it's important to make any mixing decisions and judgements when listening to the principle monitoring system. This would be through your interface, rather than through the computer's internal sound.
 
The render meter is not in LUfs? Is it RMS or peak dbfs? Where is this indicated anywhere? So the render meter and the main meter are not in the same scale?

Then I found another BIG one. My Dell has wavMaxx audio upgrade. This has an enhancer in a tray menu. It was selected to not load on start up. I had no idea it was still active in the background. It seems every play back of mp3 was being bass boosted then?So all my audio files are making boomy noises and yall cannot even hear it as I am.

Yeah, many computer systems will have "enhancements" under the Windows sound settings. Enhanced stereo, Space, EQ, etc. ALL of those things need to be turned off unless you need them. EXample, one set of my headphones are woefully deficient in bass, so I have an EQ curve with a few dB of bass increase. If I have to use those headphones, my ASUS will apply bass boost when I plug in the headphones, but I ONLY use them on that system. Any other headphones would be way overblown.

As for the peak meter on Reaper, what the is measuring is how many bits are used for the largest wave in the file. In a 16 bit file, you have from 0 to 65,535 levels. The max dB is thus mathmatically set at 98dB. Unlike an analog system, this means there is no 65,536 or 65,537th level available for the wave if you over load. Thus the wave becomes square at the top, completely flat That's also the reason everyone wants to go to 24 bit words. That give a maximum 144dB of S/N and 16,777,215 possible levels.

Your LUFS measurement is much closer to the outer RMS meters, which you will see are lower than the peaks.

Yes, its more complicated than an analog meter that just pops up and down. But that's just the nature of digital audio.

One last thing, using LUFS for a single track is pointless. It is ONLY relevant to the final mix file. From what I have looked at, the SWS LUFS measurement will not measure the master track until it is rendered.
 
it's important to make any mixing decisions and judgements when listening to the principle monitoring system. This would be through your interface, rather than through the computer's internal sound.

My monitor are set to flat. Klipsch 2.1, 5" system. Unfortunately I unplug my headphone from the AU Apollo when I finish the track. Then go in another room to mix unplugging the USBs. I would connect the monitors to the Headphone jack on my laptop and play the track. Like I said earlier I was playing with it at lunch with ASIO4ALL and earbuds. I'm not using the Apollo much if at all, at the render stages.

Is it necessary to leave the Apollo connected, via USB after the recording is complete? The sound card is defeated, but I thought it was over after the record and safe to listen to otherways.

SoundsMaxx was appling a special boost for Maxxbass and Maxxsense only to the heaphone jack. I had no idea.
 
My monitor are set to flat. Klipsch 2.1, 5" system. Unfortunately I unplug my headphone from the AU Apollo when I finish the track. Then go in another room to mix unplugging the USBs. I would connect the monitors to the Headphone jack on my laptop and play the track. Like I said earlier I was playing with it at lunch with ASIO4ALL and earbuds. I'm not using the Apollo much if at all, at the render stages.

Is it necessary to leave the Apollo connected, via USB after the recording is complete? The sound card is defeated, but I thought it was over after the record and safe to listen to otherways.

SoundsMaxx was appling a special boost for Maxxbass and Maxxsense only to the heaphone jack. I had no idea.

You're using the Windows audio system by plugging the monitors into the laptops' speaker output. Use the Apollo.
 
RULE #1 Make sure you turn off all enhancements in your device manager.
 

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Well LazerBeakShiek.......I think your problem has been solved. So now.....go and make music and have fun with it. You're still on the upward side of the learning curve......as would be expected......but it gets easier as you go.
 
Still working at it for sure. Knowing the render meter is different than the mains meter is big.

Using the same ASIO will correct the volume changes when I try to master a mix.

With all this, I am going to use the Apollo vsts instruments I hear they are quite nice. Shelve the mics for now. Play with presets and try to even them out in a -14 Lufs mix. Keeping the play back all in the Apollo. Start with a measure of drums. Something simple and known to be proper, like a test tone.

Big thanks to all.

MIDI 2.0 is here! MIDI 2.0 in 2020! Going to check that out too. So much cool stuff coming out. Luna, Revel, etc. I want to be ready.
 
LBS, I would recommend you read up on LUFS a bit more. This page has a pretty good explanation about loudness, plus some good visual info How Loud is Loud Enough. Don't get hung up on trying to hit -14. That just ONE reference number chosen by a couple of the streaming services, but that just means that if you send them a REALLY LOUD FILE, they're going to turn it down on you, and depending on the service, hit it with limiters until it's a normal volume that doesn't exceed their guidelines. As you saw with the drum files I posted, the content has a lot to do with the average file volume.

That's when you need to learn to use compression and limiting to make your tracks sound consistent and balanced. If it balances out to -18LUFS, then so be it! There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would rather have some dynamics in my music with a lower average level than something squashed to death!
 
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