What to do about renders that do not sound like the DAW

Why does the master mix db level change when I switch ASIO's due to an instrument change? I use my Fantom keyboard and I switch the driver from the UA Apollo and to the Fantom's ASIO. Now the mix is a different db. I unplug USB's and go to my room no interface to mix with phones on, so I use ASIO4ALL and BAM it is even lower db.

This is not supposed to happen is it? That is why my bass slider is always JACKED all the way up.

1/4" tape -4 db is -4 when I press play again with another instrument. This is so over my head.
 
Why does the master mix db level change when I switch ASIO's due to an instrument change? I use my Fantom keyboard and I switch the driver from the UA Apollo and to the Fantom's ASIO. Now the mix is a different db. I unplug USB's and go to my room no interface to mix with phones on, so I use ASIO4ALL and BAM it is even lower db.

This is not supposed to happen is it? That is why my bass slider is always JACKED all the way up.

1/4" tape -4 db is -4 when I press play again with another instrument. This is so over my head.

Hard for me to answer that question directly as I don't have those drivers or the issue. I do believe ASIO4All is controlled by Windows soundcard, so that one is going to have it's own different output level.

I am curious why you use separate audio interfaces? Not sure how you are working things here.

I have one designated external audio interface that controls all audio. Well, there are two others but they are ADAT slaves. All audio running through one input/output device is the way to go for sure.

No need to let the demons in! lol
 
I think it would be best to describe your whole signal chain, and how you go about recording. I am not quite understanding so it is tough to give any reliable advice.

I am curious as to the answers myself. :)
 
^^^^^ I was thinking the same thing as jimmys69. I know LazerBeakShiek has been having trouble with Reaper but having read most....if not all of his posts regarding his Reaper frustration........I still can't picture his recording chain or his overall method. I have a feeling the solution is simple.....as it should be.......but it would help if he clearly would outline his entire chain and what he does when he records. Reaper is just not any more difficult to use than most DAWs. I KNOW we can help him.
 
Thanks.

My Cockos Reaper forum account just got approved.6 days ago they sent me an email. I forget to click the registration link.

My chain? A SM58 and P420 into the corresponding UA Apollo 1-2 inputs. Using the Apollo ASIO. I loaded the unison Neve 1073 preamp defaultpreset. Then record the track into Reaper. I have not played with any VST effects, really. I put compression on a master track once or twice? Focusrite RED compressor and RED EQ were still on my computer from the discarded 6i6.

When I input keyboard I cannot get MIDI ,via midi cables, to communicate with the DAW. The apollo USB has no MIDI ins. I change to the Roland Fantom ASIO. Then I set Tempo to match, that is not synch'd I am aware its not the same. Then I play my keyboard with the USB inputs that carry sound data and midi info. No VSTs. Tracked from the USB cable to the lap no Apollo present for keyboards.

When I drew those EQ pictures of the Butt, and tit, I did not use those forms.

You mean the Roland FX processing for song 111b? You want to know the Ring mod preset. Vbass 46-2. The heavy guitar is Twin 201. The picked guitar is an ADA MP-1. The Bass amp is pictured in the bass forum as a ADA MB-1.

Reaper was installed. I could not find how to invoke it? with 5 choices ? I can run as administrator with left click.

I like not being tethered to anything. I can bring my laptop in the car and take it on site. Then at lunch put in some earbuds, make a mix on MP3 and listen to it in my car.
 
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A few thoughts:

1 Whether you have activated the registration is immaterial. It will work whether you do or don't.

2 Recording via Apollo's inputs using ASIO is good. You should also monitor via Apollo, either with speakers or headphones. It is the heart of your system.

3 But the Apollo doesn't have MIDI inputs or outputs, which is a nuisance. The Fantom, though, transmits midi via USB, so you can just connect Fantom via USB, and in Reaper preferences, select it as a MIDI input device.

4 There's no need to use the Fantom's ASIO, which could be used to record its audio. Instead you can just connect the Fantom's audio output to the Apollo. This way you leave the Apollo as the control room. I acknowledge that the Apollo may not have enough inputs to accommodate your immediate needs without plugging and unplugging stuff.

5 When you installed Reaper, the various ways of firing it up should be in the menu system somewhere. I don't know if you are Mac or PC.
 
Apparently no one else has this db drop after rendering. I have contacted Cockos customer support. I tried reading the Reaper manual and I actually felt stupider.

Is ProTools any better? Should I try that one too?
 
Apparently no one else has this db drop after rendering. I have contacted Cockos customer support. I tried reading the Reaper manual and I actually felt stupider.

Is ProTools any better? Should I try that one too?

I am not sure you are understanding what is happening. It is how you are using your DAW.

No, Protools will not be better...
 
A render should be identical in level to a pre-rendered mix.

There is no way that I can imagine that this cannot be the case. Even if you put something across the master bus, that effect will be present when listening to the mix.

So I have a few more questions:

1 What is it that you are paying back in the mix, and how are you measuring its level?
2 What are you using to play back the rendered mix, and how are you measuring its level?

One thought that does spring to mind is this: I can imagine stereo WAV file of some sort sitting there as a track in Reaper, and you apply one of the JS plugins to give you assorted measurements. You then render this file, load it back into Reaper, then use the same plug in to get measurements of the render. I can imagine this being different, because the JS plugin analyses the WAV prior to any modification applied on the master, whereas the rendered file will be modified by any FX on the master output.
 
A render should be identical in level to a pre-rendered mix.

So I have a few more questions:

1 What is it that you are paying back in the mix, and how are you measuring its level?
2 What are you using to play back the rendered mix, and how are you measuring its level?

Reaper. I am playing it with Reaper. In the same environment as the multi wav track mix. I am using the Loudness function from the 'Action' tab to normalize POST #17 has the picture of what that looks like. I analyze the 'Loudness' of the multi track master, it will say -14 LUFs. I will Render as MP3 and drag the file back into Reaper. Analyze that rendered MP3 and it will be -10 db lower in level. If I gain it back with the main slider it sounds echo'd and bouncey.

I don't know any more . I will send setup files, pictures of the problem, etc. I am stumped by this.

I am not using any VSTs, pluggins, or software effects..and I really really want to. YES the drums are VSTs I guess, but you know what I mean.
 
As stated, I was using the Normalize action to ensure the tracks would be at the -14 LUFS standard.

Back when was I making a test tone in Reaper, and then rendering the test tone, and it did not match.

So I found normalization to be a way to guaranty a level.
 
Are you actually measuring the LUFS level after you normalize or are you just assuming that normalization produces that level? What are you using to measure that level? I could surely be wrong but I am not aware that normalizing a wav automatically brings it to a -14LUFS level.

All that being said.....you're then creating / rendering an MP3 after saving the normalized master wav....and then you take that MP3 and put it in a "new" Reaper project and find that the level is -10db difference? Am I correct? Just trying to see this as clearly as I can.
 
All that being said.....you're then creating / rendering an MP3 after saving the normalized master wav....and then you take that MP3 and put it in a "new" Reaper project and find that the level is -10db difference? Am I correct? Just trying to see this as clearly as I can.

Yes. About -10 difference.

I am playing it with Reaper same ASIO. In the same environment as the multi wav track mix. I am using the Loudness function from the 'Action' tab . I analyze the 'Loudness' of the multi track master, it will say -14 LUFs. I will Render as MP3 and drag the file back into Reaper. Analyze that rendered MP3 and it will be -10 db lower in level. If I gain it back with the main slider it sounds echo'd and bouncey.

No VSTs. No Effect. Just recording a test tone.
 
So....correct me if I'm wrong here........you're not putting the rendered MP3 into "new" Reaper project right? You're dropping it into an added track in your original mix project?

What happens when you render the master as a wav file.....not an MP3....and you then drop that wav file into a "new" Reaper project?

I'm trying to be sure we can eliminate any reason to think that there's something in your original mix project that could be affecting the mp3 track you added to it.....and thus affecting the volume level.

As I've mentioned before.......I'm pretty sure this is not a Reaper problem..........but likely some sort of "learning" issue. Trust me.....that's not a shot at you. We've all been where you are before.
 
.that's not a shot at you. We've all been where you are before.

Its cool.

Correct, muting the other tracks. I have tried dragging the MP3 render into a new project. No help.

I tried as a wav , a mp3 in all bitrates, and Flac.

Does Reaper have a 'setup file' with settings to show the options and parameters enabled?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "setup file". Assuming you made no changes to the default settings in Reaper........then I have to admit I'm stumped by what you describe.

If you want to......you could completely remove Reaper from your PC (I assume it's not a Mac?).......reinstall Reaper from online.......and start a completely new project using nothing from your current project to test with......making no changes to Reaper to start with. Essentially that should eliminate any "setup" issues that you may have created previously without knowing it.

Trying another DAW at this point is not the answer. Where do you live? As I've said before.....I bet an experienced Reaper user could solve your issue quickly if he could just see what you're doing from start to finish.
 
OK, I had to validate before I commented. When you are in the DAW using ASIO drivers, the windows volume control has no influence over sound volume. It is all controlled by the DAW. If you play an MP3 or Wave using another application, Windows media, Audacity, etc. Then Windows volume control is used for the volume.

That might be the volume difference.
 
For what it's worth.........my sample rate is set at 44100 and I use Constant bitrate (CBR)mode. I have never changed those settings. Otherwise......my settings are the same as yours.
 
The finished render is showing -2.5 peaks. The peaks in mix of the tracked wav's is analyzed at -15.2db in Lufs. Are these not supposed to be the same peak value at unity, master fader set at 0?
 
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