Sweetening vox without tuning?

easlern

easlern

Boredom artist
Check out this song by Foxes in Fiction. The vocals are rough (to be kind). But instead of tuning them the producer seems to have used other instruments and vocal dubs to reinforce the vocal and give it a more pleasant sound. Or am I imagining that? Maybe there is some subtle tuning going on?

Wondering if you guys have creative tricks for sweetening difficult vocals like this. Usually I go straight to tuning but that introduces its own problems.

YouTube
 
Hey Nick. Just my opinions, but I don't think tuning should introduce problems. Keep the adjustments small and subtle, resist the temptation to tune every note, and it shouldn't even be noticeable.

In this particular video, the vocals are just buried. Maybe that's the solution, but it doesn't sound good. That and the compression are emphasizing the sibilance and bringing out everything harsh in the vocal (and in the mix overall) while anything that might make the vocal interesting or appealing is smashed under the weight of a keyboard part. It's a terrible mix.
 
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I gotta disagree a bit sorry Ray, I really like the song! But it’s really down to taste. The mood is pretty timid/anxious and the vocal just peeks out through other elements, it seems to just fit. Depending on the artist’s goals it may or may not be a bad mix, I think in this case it works. I’m just not totally sure why- but I think you’re right, burying the vocal a bit seems to be key.
 
That's the beauty of music and art in general: If you like it, who's to say you're wrong? Whoever mixed the tune was obviously going for that effect. Maybe it was to mask a weak vocal performance, maybe for other reasons entirely. If the goal of a mix is to compensate for the weakness of something so crucial as a lead vocal, you have to question. Anyway, I do.

When we start out recording and especially our own voices, the tendency is usually to bury the vocal and drown it in too much ambience. There is something terrifying about hearing our own voice so out front and exposed. Then, as we gain more experience, we learn to mix the vocal louder and drier. We learn to deal with performance problems rather than trying to mask them. Of course it depends on genre: Vocals are way forward in a pop mix, a bit less so in a rock mix. Then there is art rock like this track where I guess the point is to transgress all those expectations. But is a transgression, because the human voice saying something is an important event. We are conditioned by a million years of evolution to tune in and try to understand what is being said. It's actually frustrating to hear the voice but be unable understand, and we respond by trying to tune it out.
 
This is worth a thread under a different topic for sure. But in this thread I’m wondering how people treat dissonant vocals, other than tuning.

It seems like a psychological thing, not something I see a lot of mixing advice go into. But this song really got me wondering how it works so well with vocals that might be comparable to what a lot of us home recordists are working on.
 
I'm actually working on this problem now. There's one line I have to sing which, if I were to sing it the way I hear it in my head,
comes out dissonant against the bass line - to my ears, anyway. I have tried a couple other (vocal) versions - one still a bit dissonant,
and the other not dissonant. The vocal is a held, sliding note. I'm kinda leaning toward changing the bass line so it doesn't emphasize
the dissonance so much, if at all.

On the one hand, I actually like the dissonance. On the other, I feel I may be getting too gimicky with this. I'm not going to cover
it up, nor am I going to tune it - we'll see.
 
I like to add a pitch processed doubled or copied track. If it's a tricky note sometimes it helps to sort of turn it into a chord. A bit of just the right delay and smidge of reverb can smear it just enough sometimes, and sometimes just using a transient designer. A bit of flange or phase shift is another option. Just itty bitty effected signal on an aux send blended in can be just what the doctor ordered.
 
I have done something similar using a cloned vocal (not double tracked), EQing it slightly different and riding the fader at mixdown
to help blur some spots. That was using a porta studio.
 
Damn...those vocals are buried in the mix....almost annoyingly, compared to how loud the instruments are.
I couldn't make out but a couple of words.
When they're mixed like that...there's really no obvious "dissonance" that would even matter, IMO.

I guess burying them was intentional...but I don't see that in any was as "sweetening" them....they're just buried to where they become a backing track along with everything else. I mean, you can kinda make some sense of a vocal melody line...but not a way I would ever approach mixing vocals where they are the prime focus, and where the lyrics matter on any level.

It's almost like they are backing vocals...and there should be yet a lead vocal on top of them...but that was obviously not the intent.

If you have less then decent vocals where you need to burry them to hide that fact (as opposed to using them intentionally like a background track)...then IMO, find someone who can sing better or just go for the instrumental mix.

In the home rec world, I've heard way too many decent songs/mixes with really bad vocals. Now I get it, if you're a solo musician, and you're eager to record, but your singing ability really sucks bad, can't stay in pitch, can't stay on tempo, etc...yet you do it anyway to get it done...but I think it drags down your music if you're going to then showcase it anywhere with those vocals.

That said...I'm also of the belief that most listeners are not able to really judge vocal quality and technique...so I dunno....I guess two wrongs make a right. :D
My real point is...if you have some really good songs/mixes...do what you can to find a singer that can do them some justice. They don't need to be super-fantastic singer, just someone who is pretty decent at singing, and is comfortable singing. I think that's a big one, the lack of singing comfort really sticks out with many of the bad vocals.
 
I’m kinda lazy in that I won’t really bother to do much for an individual syllable. Except drag the bar to a step when tuning, that’s pretty easy. I read in one of Owsinski’s books that he makes a little dip around 3k on a pitchy vocal but I haven’t really got that one to work for me. I like how they doubled the melody with a guitar on this track, it seems to help quite a bit.
 
Robus said:
It's a terrible mix.
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hmm, I agree. I wanted to listen more, because the vocal melody and rhythms were pretty cool, but that mix just ruined it for me. It has to be an intentional effect they're going for, because it sounds like a washed out late 70's thing that's coming through an old crappy radio or something.
 
I agree that the mix is pretty rough. (What's with that noise floor when the second part of the song starts to come in?)

To answer the original question, the main technique here seem to be tons of reverb and burying the vox in the mix.
 
Owsinski’s books that he makes a little dip around 3k on a pitchy vocal but I haven’t really got that one to work for me.
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This is because no 2 vocals are the same. You need to do different things to every vocal. You do not copy someone else's settings and expect to get the same results. Its not how this works. You learn the tools you have and what each setting on an effect does and then you use your ears and dial in the sound you want. That's how its done
I’m kinda lazy in that I won’t really bother to do much for an individual syllable
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Um, ok. Audio production is hard work
 
The only trick is bathing the vocals in reverb, and then keeping them so low in the mix you can't hear them - which is what they did here. Who knows what the vocal issues are, you cannot hear them well enough to tell? An odd mix where the emphasis is on having no lead vocals but just backing vocals - or am I listening to something else?
 
First thing I'd try would be to double or triple track the vocals. Sometimes that makes things worse, as dissonant notes beat against each other. But other times it can reel in the ear to hear more of an average of the pitch in each track.

Reverb always helps too.

Honestly I'd rather pitch correct them, unless they're really bad. Then I'd retrack. Or find another singer :D
 
I’m not sure why some folks are having a hard time focusing on the topic- it isn’t “does this conform to your idea of how a vocal should sound?” Good insights from those of you who can read, thank you! ;)
 
easlern said:
I’m not sure why some folks are having a hard time focusing on the topic- it isn’t “does this conform to your idea of how a vocal should sound?” Good insights from those of you who can read, thank you! ;)
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"I disagree with your thesis, but here's an answer" is totally a legit way to answer a question!
 
What I meant was I cannot see how anyone can comment when you cannot hear the damn thing! I still think the reason it's buried is because it hides the flaws. Why would anyone do that if the errors could be corrected with some editing. Maybe they are just too awful solo'd?
 
spantini said:
I'm actually working on this problem now. There's one line I have to sing which, if I were to sing it the way I hear it in my head,
comes out dissonant against the bass line - to my ears, anyway. I have tried a couple other (vocal) versions - one still a bit dissonant,
and the other not dissonant. The vocal is a held, sliding note. I'm kinda leaning toward changing the bass line so it doesn't emphasize
the dissonance so much, if at all.

On the one hand, I actually like the dissonance. On the other, I feel I may be getting too gimicky with this. I'm not going to cover
it up, nor am I going to tune it - we'll see.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wonder sometimes if we notice something during recording and can’t really “unhear” it well enough to be objective about while mixing. Maybe it’s a good idea to leave it alone sometimes and revisit it after some time has passed.
 
Gtoboy said:
I like to add a pitch processed doubled or copied track. If it's a tricky note sometimes it helps to sort of turn it into a chord. A bit of just the right delay and smidge of reverb can smear it just enough sometimes, and sometimes just using a transient designer. A bit of flange or phase shift is another option. Just itty bitty effected signal on an aux send blended in can be just what the doctor ordered.
Click to expand...

I haven’t tried a phase shift before, that’s a neat idea. I have found that a good delivery can kind of save a pitchy line, I wonder if momentary effects work in kind of the same way.
 
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