Specific questions on new setup

F

funkdrmr

New member
Hey everyone. Well, I've been trolling around here for a little while now, so here's the first post!

Background: Energetic rock band, all military guys. Going to the only good studio on Oahu isn't good for us, as our schedules suck. The solution, something I've wanted to do for a while anyways, is to start putting our own home studio together. Our room is treated well and sounds fairly decent. We turned a closet into a vocal booth, and have had some good results on the equipment we've been using, so we're happy on those aspects. It's time to get the gear together.

Currently, I have plenty of drum mics, some 57's, a Marshall V69 Mogami Edition that sounds GREAT on our singer, even with our crappy Mackie 1642VLZ Pro mixer's preamps. The next step in the setup was to buy a Focusrite Voicemaster Pro and Rode NT1A (hey, another mic!.......it's in a package deal) which is coming on Monday. The goal with all this is to eventually record directly into my PC, using SONAR 4. We've played around a little with "learning experience" results by recording into a Fostex recorder, exporting the tracks, and importing into SONAR to play with them. I'm trying to get away from this.

Getting all of this stuff is a little hard on the pocketbook, so I'm kind of going one thing at a time. The next item on my list is where I'm having a problem. I really want to get a digital console, the Mackie Control Universal and Extender have really caught my eye, but I'm not sure if it's the best thing for us. Here come the questions.

How would I get my 12 or more drum mics along with bass and rhythm guitar into the system at the same time with this setup? For some reason, everything feels tighter when we start recording like this, and then lay vox and lead guitar over later. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all of these inputs need preamps as well? Am I looking at multiple sound cards with tons of inputs to accomplish this, or is there an easier way? I'm thinking the only other way would be to buy some more outboard gear, but I know I could be wrong too and I have no idea what other outboard gear I would need to get to accomplish what I need to.

I've also wondered if something like an Onyx mixer would work better, but I'm not sure if it would control the SONAR software like a digital console could. The preamps seem to get decent ratings, so I'm thinking they may be alright for the guitars & drums, but if it won't control the software maybe I should look at a different recording medium.

Right now, I'm thinking I need both something that will give me 16 channels of preamps, AND control the SONAR 4 software, without killing me outright. I just don't know what that "something" is. The Control 24 Console type stuff is WAY out of my price range. 1-3K is probably about what I'm looking at total for these items.

Any help would really be appreciated. Gear suggestions welcome. I have a thick skin, so criticism on what I think I "know" is always welcome.
 
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funkdrmr said:
1-3K is probably about what I'm looking at total for these items.
Click to expand...

With your budget, I'd probably forget about the idea of having it all on one system, and focus instead on having one board for your mic inputs, and another for control over your software.
 
Maybe I should revise my budget then. I know I am not going to get an extremely professional setup out of the amount of money I can spend, but I'd still like to go the best route possible in as many areas as I can.

Are there any good sounding preamps on the market that will accept 12-16 channels, and still come in under a grand, or should I be looking at a few to mix & match in to record drums and guitars? The more I think about it, the more I feel that outboard gear is going to be the way to go in the long run. If it's a little more expensive, that's okay.
 
Funk,

The *very* first thing I'd recommend is to have you fly me out to Oahu for a couple of weeks. How would this help you with your gear situation? It wouldn't. Well, maybe I'll help you carry and setup your new gear, but other than that, I just want a free trip to Hawaii! :D

Seriously, though...

The irony is I just got through discussing this almost exact same situation with another person from Hawaii last week. I invite you to read this thread at https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=155196
for a recommendation that would address all your concerns regarding preamps, inputs, mixing, and DAW control.

G.
 
G,
Thanks for the link. Lots of good information there! If I wasn't spending all of my money on new gear right now, I'd definitely fly someone out to help me!

The 3200 looks like it's just what I need, but I found some other information today as well so I'll have to start analyzing again. The idea I had today, was to get 2 Firepods, the Mackie Control Universal & Extender, along with the Mackie Control C4 to control the effects in SONAR. This setup looks appealing to me mainly because I can get each piece at a different time, as I have the money, rather than saving up the $3K over time to get the Tascam.
Do you have any opinion on this setup?
 
funkster,

That's not a bad idea either. You're right in that you can start out with, say, the Firepods (which will also give you Cubase LE to add to your editing machine library along with Sonar) and add a control surface later. I have seen other posts in this forum of people looking to build similar configurations, it seems to be somewhat of a popular trend these days.

It turns out, by my calculation, that the current average street prices of the gear you mention comes out to about the same price as the 3200 (+/- $100), so that is a wash. The advantage to yours, of course, being that one can build it piecemeal to satisfy a very understandable budget.

As you may have read in my other posts, I have been using Mackie products for a looooong tome (as have many of my clients), and I like and trust their stuff. I have no qualms about that selection.

I have to admit, however, that I have not done a whole lot of research on the PreSonus Firepod (and have not worked with any PreSonus gear in person). As such, I am not very qualified to critique that selection. My #1 question to my trusted sales rep would be regarding the quality of both the PreSonus preamps and converters.

I have no reason to doubt their quality, I just don't have the experience with the brand the way I do with Tascam. If someone who has worked with this stuff or who can vouch for it can reliably say that the PreSonus pres and converters are at least as good, if not better, in quality and reliability as the Tascams, then I'd be perfectly happy.

G.
 
I really like Mackie products as well. Maybe the Onyx rackmounted preamps would be something to look at instead of the Presonus?
 
Apples and oranges (sort of)

I'm assuming you're referring to the Mackie 800R. That looks to be a very interesting piece of iron. I'm especially intrigued by the addition of a couple of channels of M-S decoding and the user-selectable impedence switching. Throwing this together with 8 Onyx preamp channels and 192kHz converters for a street price of about a grand is an interesting proposition.

On the downside is that the 800R only has 2 line level inputs, and those are on the front panel. Not great news if you want an overall, flexible I/O box.

There are a couple of marked differences between the 800R and the Firepod, however. The first is price; the Mackie is about $300 more. If you got two units like you originally specualted, that would be an extra 600 bucks for Phase One of your procurement plan.

Second is that, as far as I can tell, you'd still have to buy a lightpipe interface card for your PC to actually plug the 800R into; that would up the initial cost yet some more. The Firepod, OTOH, can use existing Firewire ports; or if you haveto buy an extra FW i/f card, they are probably less expensive than lightpipe i/f cards.

Third is that it looks like the Firepod has 8 line-level ins on the rear panel, vs. the 2 front panel ones on the 800R, making the firspod the more flexible on the analog input side.

Again, I cannot comment on the quality of the PreSonus circuitry (somebody else with first hand knowledge chime in please? ;) ), so I cannot make a direct comparison of quality between the two. I'd bet, though, that the Onyx circuitry probably delivers a superior sound, but I don't know that for a fact.

So, is the Onyx path a good alternative. Yes, and probably (pending other opinions) a superior one to the Firepod. But you're not only paying 50% more by upgrading to the Onyx, but the total price just for the Onyx's with i/f cards puts you within about a grand of the price for the 3200, and you don't even have your control surfaces yet.

The all-Mackie solution is probably the best of the three in audio quality, but the most expensive of the options. You are also sacrificing some line input capabilities with the 800R.

The Tascam option is probably the close second solution in sound quality, and the best solution for I/O flexibility and multi-use (studio mixer, live mixer and DAW all in one). It costs a bit less then the all-Mackie solution, but you'd have to pay it all up front in one shot (unless you financed it), making it ahrder to afford on a tight cash flow budget.

The Firepod/Mackie solution costs about the same as the Tascam one, but can be built over time for the lowest initial cost. But the savings in money vs. the all-Mackie confiig is probably a reflection of a lessening in preamp/converter quality. As to whether the difference in price is worth the difference in performance is up to you to figure out.

As is the descision of which of these options is best for you... ;)

G.
 
G,
Thanks a lot for the help. One other obtacle I'm noticing, is whether or not the 800R or Firepod can have 2 units daisy chained. If they can't, up goes the cost again for another sound card! The Firepod is really looking like the deal to beat right now, but I'm not sure I want to sacrifice on the little bit of sound quality that I'd give up compared to the 800R. Although I'm on a tight budget, I still want to do things the best that I can now, so I don't have to be making these decisions all over again in a year or 2.
 
Ch-chain-chaaaaiiin

You bring up a good point on the daisy-chaining. I see nothing in the general info on either device that indicates specific chaining capabilities.

The Firepod does not appear to have enough I/O to daisy chain.

You could probably chain the Onyx's together though the ADAT lightpipe I/O by running the ADAT out from unit A to the ADAT in on unit B, but there are two possible complications with that: 1) Will the Onyx send all 16 channels as discreet channels out of the lightpipe into the computer? and 2) can the two Onyx's sync (or master/slave) the clocking without an external clock source? Hopefully someone else can answer these questions as I'm not 100% sure?

If you cannot daisy chain, that brings up another potential issue is on the PC end. The good news is that for both Firewire (Firepod) and lightpipe (Onyx), multi-port I/O cards are commonplace; you wouldn't need multiple cards for the physical I/O. The question is whether your DAW software can accept simultaneous input from multiple ports. I am not familiar enough with Sonar to know that answer. Again, perhaps someone else can answer that for us? (If no one in this forum knows the answer to that, perhaps a post in the Cakewalk forum would work for that one.)

G.
 
G,
Wow, man. Thanks again! I'm going to post in the Cakewalk forum & see if anyone there can help me out on that one.

I've probably looked through the same general information that you have on both units, and neither is clear on the daisy chaining issue. I think the only information that I've read that even seems like a POSSIBLE answer, is that drivers will be out soon for the firepods to be chained together....it's still in the air, though.
 
Driver, but no vehicle?

Well, drivers alone I don't think would enable true "daisy chaining" of the Firepods in the literal sense of the word; i.e. plugging one Firepod into another and then plugging that second one into the PC. You'd still need some physical way to cable the two Firepods together, and I see nothing in it's I/O hardware specs that could do that (e.g. dual firewire ports on the Firepod could do it, but it looks like they only have the one for going to the PC.)

Perhaps when they are talking about a new driver, they are referring to what I talked about in the last post; i.e. the ability to plug two Firepods into two ports on the PC and having the software see them both as a single input source.

Technically this is not "chaining", but the end result is the same.

G.
 
G,
I got the info! :D I broke down & just called both Presonus and Mackie to get everything straight. Here's what I found.

Firepod:
Compatable with SONAR 4, no soundcard needed since it's a firewire interface (known by many, but I was glad to be clear on this). Currently, they have BETA drivers out to daisy-chain 2 firepods together, and they offered to provide me with this if I were to purchase 2 of the units, so I could get fully up & running. GREAT technical support. They said the drivers will be released to the public in about a month. One other VERY important thing: I didn't have to wait on hold AT ALL!

Onyx 800R:
Called tech support, was on hold for 6 minutes, hung up & called Presonus. After the above conversation with Presonus, I called Mackie again. After another 7 minutes on hold, I was finally patched through. The Rep. informed me that I could use 2 800R units, provided I had a soundcard with the inputs to take them. No daisy-chaining, but still possible to get 16 inputs tracking at once. Other than the hold time at the beginning, the tech support was a GREAT help.

So.....now I'm torn even more. It would probably be easier if one of them wouldn't work with my situation! Recommendations, please.

If I can afford it, do you think the cost is justified by going with the 800R over the Presonus? Not just to start up, but for long term usage / expandability as well.

I'm really worried about having to buy a soundcard for the 800R's, but that's probably because I haven't researched them. Any suggestions on a soundcard with multiple inputs that will also give me a good line out for the HR824s? I'm not sure I even totally understand the method that the 800R will connect to the sound card, so that would help as well. I still need to get into the Cakewalk forum and see if SONAR will accept the inputs like this.

If the options fall into place, I'm going to go with the 800R's. Even though the Firepod gets good reviews, it seems that everyone feels the Onyx preamps are superior. The Firepod just seems so EASY though!
 
Hummmmm...

Funkster,

I'm glad you made the calls and even happier that you posted the results here on the forum for everybody to share, and happiest that you're getting the info you need. (man, I'm just a happy shit, aren't I? :p )

Just to clarify one thing; with the PreSonus you don't need an extra interface card for you PC *only* if your PC already has a Firewire port on it. If your PC isn't alreay equipped with an open Firewire card, you'll still need to add one.

Well, if the Onyxs cannot daisy chain *and* your Sonar cannot simultaneously take input from two lightpipe ports, that means that you cannot use two Onyxs at the same time. If you need all 16 ports (or at least more than 8), that probably makes the decision for you; you'd *have* to go with the Firepods.

If, however, one way or the other you can use two Onyxs, then I think it's up to your checkbook. I won't tell you how to spend you money. But if it were me, I'd think to myself, 'As long as I'm spending $1200 bucks here (on the Firepods), I want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth. Are the Firepods worth twelve hundred bucks? Is it worth 50% more for the Onyxs? or is that just spending more money than I have to.' Only you can put a figure on it for yourself. If it were me, I'd go all the way. But then again, I prefer the Tascam solution ;)

I suspect, though, that you are probably going to wind up going with the Firepods. And that will probably be more than fine for you needs for the next couple of years, and I'd really have no problem with that decision.

My only advice on that avenue is to make sure you have an agreement with ProSonus regarding support for that beta driver for chaining. Don't buy them unless or until ProSonus can guarantee you that you will, sooner than later, be able to chain them together and that they will work with you to support and fix any problems that may crop up with the beta version. Having worked on the development side myself, I know that "beta" often means "at the customer's own risk". Do not accept "at your own risk" terms from them.

G.
 
G,
Thanks again. Although the Firepod would fit what I've set as a "budget" a little better, I think I'm about 90% sure that the Onyx 800R is what I'm going to go with. I posted in the Cakewalk forum, but 5 views & no answers so far. Time to head over to their website to see if I can get some answers there.

At the same time, I'm trying to see what soundcard to use, but I really don't understand the connection options for the 800R. I see the DB25 jack on the back, but how does that connect up to the interfaces on the soundcard? I put those there hoping it's a quick answer from you, but I'm going to search on this tonight to see if I can figure it out on my own.

Thanks again, G
 
You are welcome, of course! I only wish somebody else would chime in sometime so you can get more than just one opinion from this po' boy.

If I uderstand the Onyx wiring correctly, the way you'd want to connect the Onyx to your PC is via either the "ADAT/lightpipe" TOS connection, or via the AES/EBU format. What you would need on your end is an interface card that supprts either format. You might want to sontact either Mackie or your dealer for choices on that ladder. I have no real experienced recommendations there.

G.
 
Well, G...looks like it's still just you & me here. Here's what I THINK i'm going to do, and why.

I called Mackie up today, and they recommended either an interface that had multiple lightpipe inputs, or multiple sound cards to equal the amount of inputs I'd need. Through some quick research, (2) MAudio 1010LT cards was about the best I could do pricewise, maintaining quality and getting enough inputs to utilize both 800Rs and another separate preamp.

Then, over on the cakewalk forums and even on the cakewalk forum here, the MOTU 24i/o was recommended. 24 channels of A/D conversion with one firewire interface to the computer.

After about 2 hours of comparing it with the RME Fireface 800 and anything else I could read about, I think this really is the way to go for me. It's going to provide the initial expandability that I need, I don't think I'm advanced enough right now to utilize (or notice) the improvement in A/D conversion that a unit like the RME or any higher line could give me, and the price is not so bad. When it comes time to upgrade to some better A/D coverters, the HD192 is right there, and easily integrates with the soundcard provided with the 24i/o.

So, unless I find an option giving me that amount of inputs at around the same price, here's the setup.

2 Onyx 800Rs going analog out into the MOTU 24 i/o - 16 channels
1 Focusrite VoiceMaster Pro Platinum in 1 channel of the MOTU - #17

I think I'm exceeding what I put down for my budget somewhere around here, but all in all, I believe this is what will give me the best solution for where I'm at with this studio stuff. Wadda ya think?!
 
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