Room Resonance, Loud "C" Bass Note

Definitely didn't mean to start a battle. :facepalm:

Just wanted some opinions. Actually heard the song in 5 places; two different car stereos, 2 different pairs of headphones, a boombox, and my monitors. No booming "C" notes anywhere 'cept for the monitors. Again, commercial release "C" notes don't really boom on them, but they do a tiny bit.

Monitors are M-Audio BX8-D2's
Headphones are Beyer Dynamic DT-880s and 770s (primarily use the 770s just for tracking though)
Cars were Toyotas :facepalm:

Anyway, watching my eq's when the notes pass has no effect, and the peak volume meters don't rise; so it's definitely a room/table/speaker problem. Also, when I walk around the room, the "C" doesn't seem to boom anymore, its only when sitting at the desk, or very near proximity.

I'll post pictures of the studio to see if anyone has any suggestions.

Thanks for your help. :)



That is what you said earlier.

Somebody else ASSumed you only listened in your car.

Thanks for proving that the headphones worked for all those other places without fixing your room.
 
Yea I've been mixing on heaphones for a very long time, always double-check on monitors though before I "release" anything, along with the car test, and I'm almost always using reference tracks.

My Beyer Dynamic DT-880 are actually really nice, they are open-back, and almost make me feel like I'm listening to speakers. I used 770s for years, which are nice too, but when I upgraded to the 880s, wow, they are great. Have 3 pairs of 770s I only use for tracking.
 
Yea I've been mixing on heaphones for a very long time, always double-check on monitors though before I "release" anything, along with the car test, and I'm almost always using reference tracks.

My Beyer Dynamic DT-880 are actually really nice, they are open-back, and almost make me feel like I'm listening to speakers. I used 770s for years, which are nice too, but when I upgraded to the 880s, wow, they are great. Have 3 pairs of 770s I only use for tracking.

that is a good plan

but how do you check on monitors if the room is bad ?
 
Well, not all my recordings have that "C" note, and I've also moved the desk around a bit to accodomate room for drum kits and stage setup for the 4 different bands I play with that rehearse here. That might have something to do with it. I'm going to do to more tests to figure this out.

I do have moving blankets and some mattress pads on all the corners and walls.
 
Using cans to check for specific single issues heard on monitors is an excellent idea and is common even among pros. They produce detail up close. Using them to put a mix together to get things arranged and generally put together is fine as well....although will never replace a good room with good monitors. I use them to sort out lots of things. If....for instance....you know your room has a certain issue with bass accuracy.......and you have a set of cans that you know well.........why not get there that way?
 
Definitely didn't mean to start a battle. :facepalm:

Just wanted some opinions. Actually heard the song in 5 places; two different car stereos, 2 different pairs of headphones, a boombox, and my monitors. No booming "C" notes anywhere 'cept for the monitors. Again, commercial release "C" notes don't really boom on them, but they do a tiny bit.

Monitors are M-Audio BX8-D2's
Headphones are Beyer Dynamic DT-880s and 770s (primarily use the 770s just for tracking though)
Cars were Toyotas :facepalm:

Anyway, watching my eq's when the notes pass has no effect, and the peak volume meters don't rise; so it's definitely a room/table/speaker problem. Also, when I walk around the room, the "C" doesn't seem to boom anymore, its only when sitting at the desk, or very near proximity.

I'll post pictures of the studio to see if anyone has any suggestions.

Thanks for your help. :)

Sorry, I didn't notice the alternative listening locations. I swear you just mentioned your car. Although, damn, I was close. Back in the day, you couldn't tell the difference between Honda and Toyota. :laughings:

You should post the clip. I'll bet that it will sound great. At least based on the track you posted to the mp3 clinic.

Is there a way to move your desk and listen. When I shot my room, there was a horrible sound build up over my work desk. Something between 150 and 300 hz if I remember correctly. I pushed the desk forward and, viola, it was gone from my ears and from the SPL Frequency Range graph.
 
With a cheap uncalibrated phone app and a sine wave sweep from your system, you can easily see what is happening. If you put a flattish condenser in the room and record the sweep, you can also see how the energy is behaving. Probably not exactly a C, but close. The peaks in the waveform should be obvious.
 
With a cheap uncalibrated phone app and a sine wave sweep from your system, you can easily see what is happening. If you put a flattish condenser in the room and record the sweep, you can also see how the energy is behaving. Probably not exactly a C, but close. The peaks in the waveform should be obvious.

Either that or just use you're ears. :laughings:

Seriously, though, you might not even need a sweep. I bet if you plug your room dimensions into that room mode calculator and find the frequency for your C note, you will hear it building up near your mix position. The room mode calculator has a tone generator built in.

Of course, the question is where do you go from there in terms of room treatment or desk movement. That may be a tough one.
 
Well, not all my recordings have that "C" note, and I've also moved the desk around a bit to accodomate room for drum kits and stage setup for the 4 different bands I play with that rehearse here. That might have something to do with it. I'm going to do to more tests to figure this out.

I do have moving blankets and some mattress pads on all the corners and walls.

Are the speakers on isolators or directly on the desk? My last set up the desk itself had a resonant frequency that turned it into a giant soundboard at certain frequencies.:eek: A couple of isolators like mopads got rid of that.

The moving the desk a bit thing is also a good idea to try,
 
Using cans to check for specific single issues heard on monitors is an excellent idea and is common even among pros. They produce detail up close. Using them to put a mix together to get things arranged and generally put together is fine as well....although will never replace a good room with good monitors. I use them to sort out lots of things. If....for instance....you know your room has a certain issue with bass accuracy.......and you have a set of cans that you know well.........why not get there that way?


Yup. Nothing wrong with good headphones. I use them, too, especially for editing errors, reverb details, etc. In fact, you have to use both or you will undoubtedly miss something. The problem comes when you take an extreme position on the issue and argue that monitors and room treatment are a waste of time and unnecessary. Using just headphones can cause incorrect placement and panning decisions, as well as problems with volume between tracks. There is no center in a headphone. So every track in the center has potential volume issues. And quite often, that's where the most important stuff is positioned. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use headphones or you can't use them. It means that you should be wary of the know issues.

It's funny that I guy named Mr. Average would attack a long-held orthodoxy among home recording enthusiasts and studio engineers. :laughings:
 
yes
but at my age it is hard to sleep
apnea makes it even harder to keep a normal schedule

You're getting that treated, right? With a CPAP machine? Don't mess with the Apnea beast. There is a high correlation between Atrial Fibrillation and sleep disorders, like Apnea. And, trust me, you don't want Afib. That will completely destroy your ability to sleep. And it can progress to more serious forms of structural heart disease. :eek:
 
Yup. Nothing wrong with good headphones. I use them, too, especially for editing errors, reverb details, etc. In fact, you have to use both or you will undoubtedly miss something. The problem comes when you take an extreme position on the issue and argue that monitors and room treatment are a waste of time and unnecessary. Using just headphones can cause incorrect placement and panning decisions, as well as problems with volume between tracks. There is no center in a headphone. So every track in the center has potential volume issues. And quite often, that's where the most important stuff is positioned. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use headphones or you can't use them. It means that you should be wary of the know issues.

It's funny that I guy named Mr. Average would attack a long-held orthodoxy among home recording enthusiasts and studio engineers. :laughings:

On that topic....and not to start a new debate........but have you ever wondered about how many people listen to music on headphones these days........as opposed to not very long ago? Cheap ear buds.....cheap cans.......very few seem to be walking around with what I would deem to be decent headphones. All my nieces and nephews only listen on buds or cans.....or Alexa devices. Lots of friends and relatives my age also only listen on buds or cans. Very few of them even have what we oldsters would call a stereo system in their home. I think there's some merit to more emphasis on headphone mixing / mastering. Not to say that can't be done on monitors of course........just saying that there's a HUGE bunch of people who only listen on cans or buds...............and even though monitors can get you there......the unique characteristics of buds and cans might call for a different kind of mix??? Just wondering.
 
I've actually thought exactly the same thing. Our specialist music we sell is played in big rooms, with very random speaker placement by the individual organisations who buy it. We mixed a new product paying great attention to the stereo-ness of the big orchestrations of real instruments and sound effects, and then used a couple of our client's premises to test them and discovered the mixes were awful because people would be near one speaker or the other, and not hear half the sound field. Our re-mix is virtually mono now, and better. Maybe old fashioned real hifi systems being unpopular means a re-think?. Also - have you noticed how many earphones users only have one in, or share one set - one earbud each for two people. Maybe the shrinking of the field is how its' going, almost mono.
 
I've actually thought exactly the same thing. Our specialist music we sell is played in big rooms, with very random speaker placement by the individual organisations who buy it. We mixed a new product paying great attention to the stereo-ness of the big orchestrations of real instruments and sound effects, and then used a couple of our client's premises to test them and discovered the mixes were awful because people would be near one speaker or the other, and not hear half the sound field. Our re-mix is virtually mono now, and better. Maybe old fashioned real hifi systems being unpopular means a re-think?. Also - have you noticed how many earphones users only have one in, or share one set - one earbud each for two people. Maybe the shrinking of the field is how its' going, almost mono.

my rule is that any mix has to sound good in mono even if you are making it for stereo

i do not try surround sound at all so cant speak to how that would work in mono
 
You're getting that treated, right? With a CPAP machine? Don't mess with the Apnea beast. There is a high correlation between Atrial Fibrillation and sleep disorders, like Apnea. And, trust me, you don't want Afib. That will completely destroy your ability to sleep. And it can progress to more serious forms of structural heart disease. :eek:

thanks

saw a doctor and sleep lab etc
i have complex apnea

finally got an ASV
but it keeps me awake more than it helps me sleep

lost weight and that helped the obstructive apnea part a lot
the central apnea does not seem to happen often so i am doing without any machine for now
i do get extra naps which helps a lot
 
On that topic....and not to start a new debate........but have you ever wondered about how many people listen to music on headphones these days........as opposed to not very long ago? Cheap ear buds.....cheap cans.......very few seem to be walking around with what I would deem to be decent headphones. All my nieces and nephews only listen on buds or cans.....or Alexa devices. Lots of friends and relatives my age also only listen on buds or cans. Very few of them even have what we oldsters would call a stereo system in their home. I think there's some merit to more emphasis on headphone mixing / mastering. Not to say that can't be done on monitors of course........just saying that there's a HUGE bunch of people who only listen on cans or buds...............and even though monitors can get you there......the unique characteristics of buds and cans might call for a different kind of mix??? Just wondering.

We are all going to have to learn to mix AM radio style again:facepalm:
 
On that topic....and not to start a new debate........but have you ever wondered about how many people listen to music on headphones these days........as opposed to not very long ago? Cheap ear buds.....cheap cans.......very few seem to be walking around with what I would deem to be decent headphones. All my nieces and nephews only listen on buds or cans.....or Alexa devices. Lots of friends and relatives my age also only listen on buds or cans. Very few of them even have what we oldsters would call a stereo system in their home. I think there's some merit to more emphasis on headphone mixing / mastering. Not to say that can't be done on monitors of course........just saying that there's a HUGE bunch of people who only listen on cans or buds...............and even though monitors can get you there......the unique characteristics of buds and cans might call for a different kind of mix??? Just wondering.



kids want to be mobile so ear buds are what they use
and they crank the sound up way to loud and are damaging their hearing

headphones are more for home so you dont disturb others with the speakers on
or for use in your home studio so you can hear the details better

my experience is that i get better mix with headphones
it removes the room problems
the stereo effect is slightly off since it is coming from the side not at an angle from in front
but it still sounds good and you can check the stereo placementn with the screen views showing the signal
 
kids want to be mobile so ear buds are what they use
and they crank the sound up way to loud and are damaging their hearing

headphones are more for home so you dont disturb others with the speakers on
or for use in your home studio so you can hear the details better

my experience is that i get better mix with headphones
it removes the room problems
the stereo effect is slightly off since it is coming from the side not at an angle from in front
but it still sounds good and you can check the stereo placementn with the screen views showing the signal

Ok....first you say that kids use headphones because they want to be mobile. And how on earth do you know that they play them too loud? Although you ignore adults by saying that.....I don't think that's my question or subject. I'm asking what people here might think about mixing for headphones.

Secondly.......you say the stereo effect is slightly off. Well.......IMO only....it's way off as compared to speakers and also off as compared to near fields.

Thirdly.......headphones are more for home? Headphones with mics and controls in them are still headphones and clearly those types of headphones are not meant solely for home. MANY years ago there might have been a time when cans were meant for home.......only in the sense that there were no mobile applications.......or very few.

Let's not let THIS thread go off topic please...........just looking for opinions about the impact of headphones today and whether we should be thinking in terms of mixing for them specifically.

My instinct is to say that mixing on monitors makes this a non-issue......but as we all know.....headphones ARE different in how they attack the listener.
 
Ok....first you say that kids use headphones because they want to be mobile. And how on earth do you know that they play them too loud? Although you ignore adults by saying that.....I don't think that's my question or subject. I'm asking what people here might think about mixing for headphones.

Secondly.......you say the stereo effect is slightly off. Well.......IMO only....it's way off as compared to speakers and also off as compared to near fields.

Thirdly.......headphones are more for home? Headphones with mics and controls in them are still headphones and clearly those types of headphones are not meant solely for home. MANY years ago there might have been a time when cans were meant for home.......only in the sense that there were no mobile applications.......or very few.

Let's not let THIS thread go off topic please...........just looking for opinions about the impact of headphones today and whether we should be thinking in terms of mixing for them specifically.

My instinct is to say that mixing on monitors makes this a non-issue......but as we all know.....headphones ARE different in how they attack the listener.

ROTFLMAO

because all the news reports indicate that kids have hearing problems from listening too loud
and you never see anyone walking around with big headphones on
although there are some who use wireless ones at home
you rarely see them walking the streets or in the malls


and yes you should use headphones for mixing
but you may want to use different type than for recording

open/closed back phones would be better for specific uses
 
ROTFLMAO

because all the news reports indicate that kids have hearing problems from listening too loud
and you never see anyone walking around with big headphones on
although there are some who use wireless ones at home
you rarely see them walking the streets or in the malls


and yes you should use headphones for mixing
but you may want to use different type than for recording

open/closed back phones would be better for specific uses

Ok.......my mistake. Sorry. I should have realized that I can't be right if I'm disputing Mr. Angry. Please forgive me. I am not worthy.
 
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