Rock- Vocal Effects Chain? Correct Use of Effects?

BBad199

New member
I'm in the dillemma that I'm really not quite sure how to get vocals to be soft in the mix yet distict. I'm trying to attain all the clarity of having no effects with the softness that modern rock vocals attain. In other words, every pro record out there has a certain effect on the vocal that softens it into the mix that I can't figure out what it is. I hear the compression. If it is a reverb that is softening vocals, I can't figure out how to use my Waves Reverb correctly to make a soft difference without noticing a reverb.

1 - an excellent performance is a given. I have this.
2 - right micing technique and equipment chain - I have this.

Here is my though. If I were to hit the insert and send bypass button on a pro recording, this is what my vocal would sound like.


I keep trying to fit it in with EQ on both the guitars and overheads as well as the vocals themselves. I've already compressed it more than enough to be even.
 
BBad199 said:
1 - an excellent performance is a given. I have this.
2 - right micing technique and equipment chain - I have this.
If you have all that then you don't need to process them. It's always best to get the sound right, record it, and do no processing. My guess is you are compressing and eqing when you don't need to and you might need to just tighten up the vocals a bit more to get the sound you want. e.g. if you want the vocal to be more distinct then pronunciate your words a bit more and make sure the room is treated. When you solo your vocals do they stand on their own? If so and they still aren't distinct in your mix, try starting with a vocal submix and mix around them instead of trying to fit them into your mix.
 
BBad199 said:
I'm in the dillemma that I'm really not quite sure how to get vocals to be soft in the mix yet distict. I'm trying to attain all the clarity of having no effects with the softness that modern rock vocals attain. In other words, every pro record out there has a certain effect on the vocal that softens it into the mix that I can't figure out what it is. I hear the compression. If it is a reverb that is softening vocals, I can't figure out how to use my Waves Reverb correctly to make a soft difference without noticing a reverb.

I'm in the dilemma that I'm really not quite sure just what sound you have in mind. An example might be helpful.

In the meantime I will say that there are poular trends these days to heavily process vocals with multi-chorus effects and multiple vocal track layering.

But I'm with morningstar; keep it clean. :)

G.
 
When I hear something like, "I want my vocals to sit well in the mix..." compression is the first thing that comes to mind.

You said you're compressing the vocals. What are your settings (Ratio, threshold, attack, and release)?

I've said this before, but I really like to use the Waves Rcomp with just a few dbs of reduction (between 3 and 4dbs), followed by the C1 with about 10-12dbs of reduction, slow attack, medium release, ratio somewhere between 2:1 and 3.5:1.

Other things to consider: If your vocals are "popping out" too much in the mix, maybe the singer was tracked too close to the mic. Also, go in and look at the waveform...if there are some big peaks sticking out, go in and reduce those before you compress.

Without hearing the track it's hard to tell what the problem is, but another less obvious thing might be that you're driving the preamp too hard. When you're running out of headroom on a preamp, especially on a vocal track, it can make it sound harsh...not clipping, but just that sort of gritty sound where you're butting up against the clip point of the preamp.

Hope some of this helps.
 
Take nickleback for example - How you remind me.

If you have the CD, turn it up to a moderate listening level. The vocal, for lack of a better term is "blended" into the mix. It doesn't sound dry, but it definately has some type of effect that smooths out the sound without effecting clarity. IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A REVERB nor does it sound natural and crystal clear...but it sounds right!!!

All the EQ and compression in the world won't give the vocal this effect. I can't help but to think it is some type of reverb used in a special way though signal chains of some sort...maybe a stacking of some sort or sidechaining? I'm at a loss...I know I can't duplicate it. I've been trying for weeks.
 
Nickelback Vocal

BBad,

The vox on that Nickelback tune sound heavily EQ'd to me.....maybe most of the lows removed....maybe another vox track mixed behind the main vox track with some distortion blended in or possibly a 2nd vox track EQ'd till it's very skinny, compressed to hades & back, then blended behind the main track.

That lead vox has gritty, biting, presnt quality...somehow without sucking.

Bart
 
I think I hear a compressed effects chain. The vox aren't doubled on verses though (from memory?)

It's not too heavily EQed, but the lows are definitely rolled off, but not too much to sound thin. There is a good amount of air in there to give it some sparkle. Its got to be straight off the mic otherwise it wouldn't work so well. It sounds to natural to be heavily eqed (or maybe just better quality EQ than I've ever worked with =)
 
Hmh.. Give us some piece of dry vocals, would be alot better chances to help you.

Just to make sure.. To get "that sound" sound you need to have a good/perfect mic for the singer, a good preamp for him, usually some good comp and in big studios they usually record to analog tape. And then a very good room of course. Overall a nice, pricey analog chain. (Some nice tubemic 2500$, preamp 2500-5000$, comp 2000-5000€, the tapedeck (varies) and finally kick ass AD)

What it comes to different tricks, here are some commonly used:

- Double tracking. Make the singer double track the vox as tightly as possible. Good singers should be able to do quite tight takes without any big problems. This gives wonderful fattening natural chorus type sound.

- Some real nice and good chorus device.

- Harmonies! These make the voc really stand out and make much fuller. Usually any "produced" song has around 6-8 backing harmonies (Most of the Nickelback stuff has those also. Especially at choruses).

I'm listening Nickelback "Flat of the Floor" (The Long Road), analyzing the vocals. My ears tell me this:

- Compressed very agressively. Check also the "fake compression" a bit lower.

- This one uses 2 reverbs. One room/close verb and another much longer one.

- Uses tempo syndec delays. Shorter and longer delays.

- There is some chorusing type effect. Not natural enough to be doubles, not sure thou. Might be doubles or both double&chorus. Listen for example those long notes he sings. Those give it away immediately.

- I believe the main track is also duplicated (copy-paste). Then it gets EQed and compressed very agressively. Then it is spreaded over the stereo field (usually studios use Eventides to do this job. It can be somewhat done with two fery fast delays too) and then mixed together with the main vox. This gives the vocals much more aggressive and "in your face sound". It makes them also quite alot "bigger".

Overall it isn't those effects that make it "blend" into the music.. it is the mixing.. Even if you had all the equipment it would still be a hard job to come up with such results unless you really know your stuff.

BTW just for comparing another Nickelback "Throw yourself away":

- Compressed quite similary
- No chorus type sound. Doubled&backed at choruses thou.
- Uses again 2 verbs
- Uses again some very subtle delays. Also some longer delay more as an effect.
- Again I believe this one has been duplicated and spreaded with some harmonizer. Not so agressively as previous song thou.

Hope this helps you at least a bit :)
 
Oh and by the way. That mastering "squishing the hell out of it" is also a part of that sound..

Also I didn't remeber to mention the multiband (preferably) "exiters" or "enchancers". They add additional harmonic content into the track/mix. Usually you don't need these, but sometimes these might be just what the track or mix is needing.
 
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I know the limitation on gear will effect the quality but I believe the right enigineer with the right tools is 90% of the necessary.

Doubling - I've doubled the choruses...but not the verses. It sounds too unnatural too me.

Harmonies - Slowing adding them it, however, I don't want to rely on that for a good vocal sound. I want it to stand on its own so that it just rips when the makeup is added.

Good info - gave me some great ideas. I'm going to head to the studio tonight to look into setting a reverb with compression as my triggering mechanism. Never thought about adding a long and short delay reverb together! Thanks!
 
If it's the nickleback sound you're going for then compress, compress again, compress the hell out of it, go take a cigarette break, then come back and compress until you're too tired to compress anymore.
 
A lot of times I use quick delays in place of reverbs...a la johnlennon's old vocals. Then to get it right, I will compress it. If you process vocals right, it should still sound natural.
 
sorry for bringing this thread back to life for such a stupid question, but all this is really interesting, and it makes me wonder: is there any way one can seriously get to know all this stuff? I mean, I'm afraid there's no way I can work in a studio and I don't know anyone who could help me out. Obviously you can't become a world class producer without proper training etc, but how can one (that is, I) learn how to produce a decent result? Thanks ;)
 
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