Rock > Is that a moderate mastered Song?

[pablovschby]

Forum-Members,

I don't know if that is the right subforum, but I don't think that the mp3-mixing-clinic would be appropriate. Mixing/mastering is a matter of taste, whatelse isn't...

I just want to know from some guys of you, if this file is mastered moderate. I don't like over-produced CD's, but although I want to get some loudness, ... as much as I can when mastering in a moderate way. I know it's difficult for these kinds of rock, but I try...

Well, it does distort a liiiiiiiitle bit, but it doesn't seem over-produced, as I think. I really do like this Version, I mixed and mastered it myself.

What do you think about this Version? Please, especially relate your answers to mastering processes.

So, as I told, my most important issue: Is that a "moderate mastered" Song??????
Thanks for all possible answers.

 

[Massive Master]

Well, it does distort a liiiiiiiitle bit...

It's actually VERY distorted... However, I'd *guess* that all that distortion wasn't just from the mastering phase...

Any chance of posting the unmastered version for A/B purposes?

 

[scrubs]

I haven't had a chance to listen, yet, but looking at the waveform, it looks pretty squished. All those waveforms are slamming the ceiling.

 

[pablovschby]

Thank you very much for answering.

It's actually VERY distorted... However, I'd *guess* that all that distortion wasn't just from the mastering phase...

The mixed Version can be downloaded here for comparing. Is it already in the mixed version that distorted? Well, there are high-gain-guitars....... but that's rock.......

Hmm....I don't understand, why it is that distorted.

it looks pretty squished. All those waveforms are slamming the ceiling.

?????????

But when the bassdrum, for example, plays......... it has to slam the ceiling. Hasn't it? Also @ moderate mastering, that's normal, isn't it? At least a peak between -1 and -0 dB, when the Bassdrum plays.......... The Bassdrum is the loudest element in the mix, so why shouldn't it? Someone told me, that this track IS mastered in a very moderate way....... wasn't he right?

please help me. Is distortion unescapable, if you want to get some loudness???

I really don't understand.... then every Rock-Album (QOTSA, Limp Bizkit, whatever) IS that distorted or what do I do wrong?

I use the built-in Multiband-Compressor of Steinberg SX2.0 (moderate settings) and VSTDynamics (moderate settings).
please help me, I'm a bit confused, now.........

 

[mshilarious]

But when the bassdrum, for example, plays......... it has to slam the ceiling. Hasn't it? Also @ moderate mastering, that's normal, isn't it? At least a peak between -1 and -0 dB, when the Bassdrum plays.......... The Bassdrum is the loudest element in the mix, so why shouldn't it? Someone told me, that this track IS mastered in a very moderate way....... wasn't he right?

I can't listen to it in a meaningful way here either, but based on the .wav scrubs posted, the overall volume isn't that loud (I can see some light!). scrubs, what is the timescale there? Is that the whole 1:30?

please help me. Is distortion unescapable, if you want to get some loudness???

Distortion and loudness are two separate things. A very loud mix will probably be distorted, but a quiet mix can be distorted too, depending on how each track was processed as a part of the mix.

I really don't understand.... then every Rock-Album (QOTSA, Limp Bizkit, whatever) IS that distorted or what do I do wrong?

Many modern rock albums are badly distorted.

 

[pablovschby]

Many modern rock albums are badly distorted.

What a RELIEF! Thank you for bringing that light in. So, attached is the whole endfile, during a bit longer than 3mins...

Well, you just got the first 1:30 in "bw_mastered.mp3" and scrubs didn't post the whole 1:30...

attached, you can see...

thanks a lot.

"moderate" is meant comparing with the album-productions of Queens of the stone age for example, of.... Green Day, Puddle of Mud, whatever...

so, relating to studio-albums... (rock....grunge)... that's what I mean with moderate. ............

thanks

edit: For those who can listen to the mp3s...... > is the mixed-version (yet not mastered) distorted as well?

edit2:

Distortion and loudness are two separate things.

Of course, I do know that, ......

 

[scrubs]

scrubs, what is the timescale there? Is that the whole 1:30?

no, that's about a 20-30 sec segment

 

[mshilarious]

no, that's about a 20-30 sec segment

Yeah, that ain't that loud, compared with modern rock. In fact that could probably stand 1dB of limiting without further harm . . . the question is, what caused the harm already?

After a brief PC speaker listen, sounds like there was a fair amount of distortion introduced during tracking and probably EQ. At least try to address the vocal sibilance. The vocal overall is pretty loud.

 

[pablovschby]

thx

In fact that could probably stand 1dB of limiting without further harm . . . the question is, what caused the harm already?

So, the Limiter isn't the cause, if I interpretated right. But hmmm..... harm? Is the distortion meant again?

I understand the word, I know, what it means...but maybe I don't know it relating music-productions.

After a brief PC speaker listen, sounds like there was a fair amount of distortion introduced during tracking and probably EQ.

My english isn't very well, but I understand all the words.

So, you think, the reason for these distortions are the EQ-settings while mixing? So, the distortion already exists in the mixed (yet not mastered) version ???

I never heard about an EQ that produces distortions... as long as the signal isn't above -0dB

At least try to address the vocal sibilance. The vocal overall is pretty loud.

adress the vocal sibilance >> does that mean put the vocal sibilance louder or quieter?

Hmmm, maybe I'm gonna turn the vocals a bit quieter, but it doesn't seem to me to be too loud, I'll check, thx. I use a DeEsser on main vocals, I think that has its influence.

edit: What do you mean with "tracking"? I just know the meaning of the word, when you "track" something instead of using midi.........hmmmmmm I think you mean the dynamic editing while mastering, do n't you?

....... The settings of the multiband-compressor? Hm...

 

[mshilarious]

So, you think, the reason for these distortions are the EQ-settings while mixing? So, the distortion already exists in the mixed (yet not mastered) version ???

Yes.

Distortion is a (bad) change in the original signal. Tracking means recording, so distortion in tracking means that something happened between the instrument or vocal and the microphone, preamp, or converter to harm the signal. Distortion can also be caused by mixing with extreme EQ, levels, or effects.

I never heard about an EQ that produces distortions... as long as the signal isn't above -0dB

There's more than one type of distortion. If the EQ doesn't boost the signal over 0dB, there is no distortion from clipping, but extreme EQ changes will create a large phase difference which can sound harsh.

adress the vocal sibilance >> does that mean put the vocal sibilance louder or quieter?

Quieter.

 

[scrubs]

Yeah, listening now. Not terribly loud, but very distorted. Did you intentionally add distortion to the vocals for effect? Getting things right at tracking and mixing will allow you to limit a little harder if louder is your goal.

 

[pablovschby]

Distortion is a (bad) change in the original signal.

Yeah, okay, that's the kind of distortion that has nothing to do with clipping, ok, thx. But "bad" doesn't have to own a negative meaning in this case, cause some people really wish to go away from the original signal.. with exciters for example...whatever, the tastes again.

so distortion in tracking means that something happened between the instrument or vocal and the microphone, preamp, or converter to harm the signal.

...for example a handy or a fluorescent tube or other electric devices? okay...

which can sound harsh.

Ok.

Did you intentionally add distortion to the vocals for effect?

Well, I exaggerated a bit with the voicelines, I have to admit, but it's art:

verses:
1 main vocal
back: 2 backgroundvocals

refrain:
1 main vocal
back: 1 whispering vocal, 3 backgroundvocals

hehe, that could be a reason as well..... but there is NO distortion added to vocals.

So, now, is there still that much distortion on the voices in the mix here (mixed version) as it was before?? I think it's better now.....

 

[Massive Master]

I haven't had a chance to listen, yet, but looking at the waveform, it looks pretty squished. All those waveforms are slamming the ceiling.

Squished, but not crushed to look like a crew-cut... That's what I meant by the distortion not being from the mastering stage... Now that the original mix is up, that still seems to be the case. I didn't listen *really* closely, but it seems to be sprinkled pretty evenly across a number of tracks.

 

[RAMI]

Between SCUBS, MSHILARIOUS and MASSIVE MASTER, you have more than enough knowledge and wisdom, so I don't need to chime in...

I just want to say that in your first post, you kept putting "distorted", "moderate" and "over-produced" in the same context. I think that "over-produced" has nothing to do with how loud a song is. You're talking 2 different things there....OK, sorry...carry on.

 

[pablovschby]

thx a lot.

but it seems to be sprinkled pretty evenly across a number of tracks.

What do you mean with that? Please explaine, cause I don't really know, what you've meant.

Sprinkled?

What are possible causes for that? Do you mean the kind of sprinkling, caused of a handy, a fluorescent tube or other electric devices while recording?

Tracks?

You just want to refer to different steads of the song or do you mean a track as a song is?

I'm sorry, my mother language isn't english...

you kept putting "distorted", "moderate" and "over-produced" in the same context.

Yeah, but I didn't say that these 3 things mean the same.

I think that "over-produced" has nothing to do with how loud a song is. You're talking 2 different things there....

I do speak of 2 different things, that's right .......but:

Between the loudness and an over-produced record could exist a relation. It doesn't have to, but it could. Cause if someone wants to get a mix very, very loud... there could arise distortion or it could become an over-produced song..........album...but that ain't important.


- So, isn't the newer mixed version better than the old one?
- Is there still a lot of distortion in the mixed version already?

Thx for possible replies.

edit: The records were made with a Midiman (nowadays called M-Audio) Audio card... maybe that takes influence as well.

 

[Massive Master]

I meant that the distortion seems to be fairly even across most of the sound and regardless of level. Is there anything common to all tracks? The same preamp or microphone? Console? Was there something across the mix buss (or on groups or channels for that matter) that ran out of headroom?

 

[SonicAlbert]

The gain-staging could have easily been messed up somewhere along the line in the recording process. So for example an instrument could have been loud enough to overload a piece of gear somewhere along the signal path, but then turned down at the last stage when going to disk. That way you get distortion without high volume levels. Kind of the worst of both worlds really, if that's the case.

Also, any signal peaking at between -1 and 0 can't really be considered "moderate" since that's pretty much as high as you can go. I would call that loud.

Have you ever listened to how loud -1 or 0 db is? You need to understand that the master volume control you are using for playback volume is functioning as an attenuator, not as a volume booster. So what you are doing is turning the volume down, not up. Even when you dial the volume up, what you are really doing is just making it turn down the volume less.

If you were to set up your studio so that -1 or 0 db actually went out to your speakers you'd almost certainly blow them out. Just understand that it is incredibly loud, and mastering to -1 or 0 db is not really moderate volume levels.

My opinion anyway.

 

[pablovschby]

Ok, thanks for your answers.

@ Albert:

I know, it isn't moderate, but it is moderate comparing to modern rock albums. I don't want to offend anyone.

So, moderate...ok, it isn't really moderate. But it is moderate relating to modern rock albums. ..........


@ massive Master:

I meant that the distortion seems to be fairly even across most of the sound and regardless of level.

There is still much distortion on the mixed version? See below....

Is it better, comparing with the old mixed version?

Is there anything common to all tracks?

There is 1 Song we speak about. Of course I do other records with my equipment.........

The same preamp or microphone? Console?

Ok, I'm using a Palmer Speaker emulator for getting a tube-preamp in activity. Signaling pathway:

guitar > tube preamp > Palmer speaker emulator > M-Audio-Card > Computer (Cubase)

Was there something across the mix buss (or on groups or channels for that matter) that ran out of headroom?

There is a maximizer on the front-guitars. Nothing else. Could that be the reason for these distortions? Hmm, all guitars are in groups. There are several groups: 2 guitar-groups (back- and front-guitars)..... 2 back-vocal-groups (for refrain and verse)

Thx for all further answers.

 

[Massive Master]

Um... I mean is there anything common on all the tracks that make up this recording. I would imagine the interface is. Anything else? Are your recording levels too hot across the board or anything?

 

[noisewreck]

@ pablovschby: What Massive Master is referring to by "tracks" is not a "track" as in a finished tune on a CD, but like the guitar track, the snare track, the kick track, the bass track, the vocal track, etc.

@ scrubs: That waveform doesn't look that bad. I've seen worse where the whole tune is one solid rectangle!