reducing the level of a mix without moving the master output fader?

B

Bip Bop

New member
I have a mix that I want to prepare for mastering but it is peaking at over 0db on the output fader of Logic. I know it needs to come down but I have quite a bit of volume automation written in as well as many aux busses ( for drums and multiple guitars etc.) reverb busses and plug-ins.

There seems to be divided opinion on whether one can reduce the fader, put a gain pot on the master or not touch the master and put gain pot on all tracks and busses.

What I've always done is pull down all the track faders and where there is volume automation Logic has a way to grab it all for each track and reduce it by the same amount of dbs.

However with this song it's not working, Can it be because of the aux channel routings or even the input and output of each plug- in? All I know is when I think I am reducing all the levels only, my mix is destroyed.

Any help would be gratefully received.

Thanks

BB
 
I can't speak with technical authority, but if the individual tracks aren't clipping, I'd just pull down the master fader.

If the individual tracks are clipping at the end of the chain, but not at the plugin I/O, turn them down at their final output point.
That should be the fader, but if you have automation set you can just insert a gain plugin at the end of your plug chain and pull that down instead.

In protools the faders are post insert, so adjusting volume automation or the fader doesn't effect the levels going in/out of compressors etc.
I guess it's the same for you?


With aux tracks/buses, the fader is pre insert, so pulling down that fader will mess with the threshold of any comps etc. (in protools at least).

What you'd want to do there is either rebuild your levels from the ground up, or just insert a plug at the end of the aux track plug chain, and use it to pull the level back.

You could just pull the send levels down by x, and then the threshold of any compressors that follow by the same amount......
It can get messy. :facepalm:
 
Even if you're clipping channels you can bring down the master fader. Until you bounce/render/export your mix to a file you are in floating point, which means there's huge amounts of headroom at all points in your signal chain. That headroom goes away when you render your mix so as long as you correct your final level first you should be okay.
 
Even better. Thanks BSG.
I take it clipping individual plugins is still an issue though, right?

I don't know why, but I've noticed waves IRL seems very easy to clip and I have to watch my staging when I'm using it.
 
Thanks steen and boulder,
I'm still not sure why some say that the master fader should be left at 0db and only individual tracks lowered. Is that just not true?
 
Once again, I'm your quick answer.
Someone else might be the more accurate one. :p

It's probably better advice in the analog world.
Say your master fader is post insert, and you have master inserts.

If your master is overloaded and you just pull down the fader, you'll still be hitting your master effects too hard.

I guess an overloaded master channel in the analog realm means that the sum of all the tracks is overloading some circuity somewhere, whether or not you pull the fader down.

I'm keen to see what Bobbys/BSG say.
 
Bip Bop said:
Thanks steen and boulder,
I'm still not sure why some say that the master fader should be left at 0db and only individual tracks lowered. Is that just not true?
Click to expand...
Well, in my opinion, yes and no. You can lower your master fader if you need to. But the theory of "shouldn't" lower it stems from the fact that you "shouldn't have to" lower it. Your tracks should be coming way low enough that you're not worrying about coming close to clipping. In your case, with the automation, etc....I would just turn down the master.
 
Bip Bop said:
Thanks steen and boulder,
I'm still not sure why some say that the master fader should be left at 0db and only individual tracks lowered. Is that just not true?
Click to expand...

I would say it's best practice and will make other things work better. Try setting basic levels with a pre-everything gain control, apparently in the "region inspector" for each clip in Logic, with no inserts and with the channel faders zeroed out. Give yourself lots of headroom; peaking around -12dBFS is my general target. Try to think in terms of what's too loud and needs to be lower rather than what's too low and needs to be pushed.

[Edit] The above is for next time. For this mix just turn down the master. That's the magic of floating point processing. It's pretty forgiving up until is has to become fixed point.
 
Steenamaroo said:
In protools the faders are post insert, so adjusting volume automation or the fader doesn't effect the levels going in/out of compressors etc.
I guess it's the same for you?


With aux tracks/buses, the fader is pre insert, so pulling down that fader will mess with the threshold of any comps etc. (in protools at least).
Click to expand...

Just want to make sure this is cleared up.

The first part is true.

The second part is false. In this statement, "Aux" has been confused with "Master". In ProTools, the fader on Aux tracks is post-insert.

However, the fader on Master fader tracks is pre-insert.

You can create a Master fader track which corresponds to a bus that is used as the input for an Aux track. This will give you a fader for that Aux track that is pre-insert. But the fader on the Aux track itself will still be post-insert. There is no way around that.
 
xander.moser said:
Just want to make sure this is cleared up.

The first part is true.

The second part is false. In this statement, "Aux" has been confused with "Master". In ProTools, the fader on Aux tracks is post-insert.

However, the fader on Master fader tracks is pre-insert.

You can create a Master fader track which corresponds to a bus that is used as the input for an Aux track. This will give you a fader for that Aux track that is pre-insert. But the fader on the Aux track itself will still be post-insert. There is no way around that.
Click to expand...

Oops. My mistake.
Interesting info. Thanks.
 
I am a little wiser now......I think!

To be honest I'm working on this track for someone else who's automation was added before I warned him of it making life difficult if the master is too hot.
I agree with the view that one shouldn't have to touch the master fader and I always keep the individual channels turned down.
This time before sending it for mastering I'll just turn the master fader down.
Btw, this may be significant but Logic has a fader for output 1 and 2 which I suppose relates to my interface and which has slots for insert FX and a bounce button. But next to it is a fader actually called Master but which has no inserts or bounce button and which I've always ignored (?!)
 
Here is what I have done. If I have real audio clips, and everything else sounds correct, I will turn down the offending clip (I use Ableton) or, rather than automation, if a certain part is peaking, I turn down the clips volume envelope where it is causing issues. That way I just touch that in which is causing problems. I usually do this if I have done a lot of work and don't want to repeat everything.

Not sure how other DAWs work, but Ableton gives me a lot of options to resolve issues with the sound.
 
DM60 said:
Here is what I have done. If I have real audio clips, and everything else sounds correct, I will turn down the offending clip (I use Ableton) or, rather than automation, if a certain part is peaking, I turn down the clips volume envelope where it is causing issues. That way I just touch that in which is causing problems. I usually do this if I have done a lot of work and don't want to repeat everything.

Not sure how other DAWs work, but Ableton gives me a lot of options to resolve issues with the sound.
Click to expand...

Such problems and issues are caused by not leaving yourself enough headroom, not by some particular peak. You shouldn't have to make mix adjustments just to stay under clipping.
 
A very quick workaround would be to insert another buss called "Pre-master"

Point the output of this buss to your Master buss
Route all other tracks/busses to the Pre-master
You can use this to raise/lower the entire level of the mix and still keep your master fader at 0dB
 
Jonesey9 said:
A very quick workaround would be to insert another buss called "Pre-master"

Point the output of this buss to your Master buss
Route all other tracks/busses to the Pre-master
You can use this to raise/lower the entire level of the mix and still keep your master fader at 0dB
Click to expand...

Why would that be better than simply lowering the master fader?
 
Jonesey9 said:
I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying it's an option - one that keeps your master fader at 0dB
Click to expand...

I used to do that in Cubase so I didn't have to open the Mixer window to see my "Master fader". I worked almost exclusively in the edit window and that was easier for me. All master processing happened on that bus (I called it SUBMIX).

Like what Jonesey says, just another method to all this madness.
 
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