Raising Master Fader to gain volume

Nola

Well-known member
Hey guys,

Is there any detriment to raising the master fader to increase volume before exporting from the DAW?

Say I don't want any compression, but just want the mix louder -- on this particular mix, I can raise the master fader 6db without clipping. Is there any downside to doing this?

btw: I had the master fader at 0 for the entire recording process.
 
Not really. I prefer doing it at the bus gain control but that's just a work method pref - for metering,gain goes into the compressor limiter etc.
 
As long as it doesn't clip, you are fine.

A lot of people use a mastering limiter to add the gain, even if the limiter isn't limiting. They do this just in case of a stray transient. Having the limiter act on a few transients across an entire song won't be noticed.
 
Sweet, thanks guys. I find that just adding the slightest compression or limiting gives an undesirable sound, especially in the drums, which is why I'd like to just raise the fader.
 
One question...
When you raise the master fader by 6 dB...you may not hear any clipping, but do you *see* the signal well into the red?
 
One question...
When you raise the master fader by 6 dB...you may not hear any clipping, but do you *see* the signal well into the red?

No there's still a lot of headroom. It's just in the yellow.

I don't know what this means in terms of "why"...did I mix everything too low? I never know how to start a mix in terms of volume and wind up with this problem a lot. I tend to put the faders all at 0 and then move a lot of them down, so the mixes are always quiet (this one was -25db and I got it to -19db by raising the master fader 6db). I'm not sure if this is normal.
 
It's not a problem at all. With the whole system being so wide and forgiving, and while you're working on 'a mix', at least through most of the process 'where it's landing isn't critical (best to come under anyway.
And didn't mean to imply there that compression (or limiting) has to be (or is) the default condition. I do have a limiter I like on the master by default, but it's only there for convince ('just in case' during rough mix bounces for example). Only towards the end- then I work the mix up- and into it's final level, and decide if or how much compression, and how hard hitting the limiter sounds right.
 
Nola, when you render your mix, have a look at the wave form. See those volume spikes, those little outliers that are much louder than anything around them? I noticed a few on the latest mix of your song that I heard. Often they are transients that are so brief you don't even hear them, but they will cause problems when you try to raise the overall level of your mix. Unless there is a very good reason for them to be there, you don't want them. Many home recordists will probably slap a limiter on the master bust. What I prefer to do is hunt them down to the source and fix as many of them as possible manually. By fix, I mean split the audio file of the offending track on either side of the part that is causing the spke, then manually lower the level of that part by a few dBs as needed. Snares, kicks and toms are common sources. Sometimes it's a combination of several tracks.

Here's a quick way of zeroing in on the spikes. Render your song, then import the rendered file back into the DAW as a track and mute it. Now you can just look at the wave form and see exactly where in the song the spikes are happening. I'm sure there are other ways of doing it.
 
"Here's a quick way of zeroing in on the spikes. Render your song, then import the rendered file back into the DAW as a track and mute it. Now you can just look at the wave form and see exactly where in the song the spikes are happening. I'm sure there are other ways of doing it."
Hey, I use that method my self. But I'll do you one better, and save you a step :>)
1) Make a new bus in your mix template. Call it 'mix or what ever. It's routed direct to the same physical output pair as your master. Nothing goes on it, and everything stays 'zeroed'.
2) Render your mix as a new track in the DAW.
3) Assign new mix track to the dedicated 'mix bus.
Play and view. Already aligned, none of that needing to remember to un-do effects' or 'zero your master to listen to it.
And a copy is also saved with the proj.
I'll often have several mix versions saved/name dated to referrer back to as needed in a project.
 
Thanks mixit, that's a good idea. I'll try it.

MM, I'm thinking more of the mix stage. I'm not putting any limiting on the master bus while I mix. Just trying to create a relatively clean mix that could be mastered subsequently.
 
No there's still a lot of headroom. It's just in the yellow.

I don't know what this means in terms of "why"...did I mix everything too low?

I ask because most DAW will allow you to crank the MB fader and push it well into the red...and you will no *hear* any clipping, because the DAW is running at 32bit and probably processing at even great depth.
FF to your final 16bit/44.1 mixdown...and all that red stuff would then be a problem.

However...if it stays in the yellow even when you crank the MB fader...then not to worry.
 
It's the "floating point" part of 32bit float that lets it go over without clipping. The converters in the monitoring chain are not floating point and they do clip with levels over 0dBFS.

Yep.
Now there's still 'clips too short -or just not over enough or long enough to be heard.
Sonar has peak marker modes for when in doubt, for how much, where..
 
It's the "floating point" part of 32bit float that lets it go over without clipping. The converters in the monitoring chain are not floating point and they do clip with levels over 0dBFS.

Right...but my converters never do...and I don't have any super high-end converters.
Not sure if the DAW is somehow taking care of that...but I can hit the red all day while working in the DAW, and not hear a single "clip".

If I just play back clipped files outside of the DAW but through the converters...I can hear the clips.

I can confirm this later tonight, as I don't work in the red normally, but I do know that I've cranked the DAW MB fader to the end, all red...and not *heard* the clipping.
 
I noticed a few on the latest mix of your song that I heard. Often they are transients that are so brief you don't even hear them, but they will cause problems when you try to raise the overall level of your mix.

hey thanks robus. so i went and looked and it's all like kick and snare hits. does this mean the drums are too loud and i should just lower them in volume?
 
Drum transients are always going to peak higher/harder. It doesn't mean that you should turn them down, is their level in the mix is good.
IOW...you can't just go by peaks...you have to go by the mix.
So like, if you need the drums at a certain loudness, and that makes the peak too high and causing issues...you would have to bring down the mix, because if you just bring down the drums...you will upset the balance of the mix.
 
Right...but my converters never do...and I don't have any super high-end converters.
Not sure if the DAW is somehow taking care of that...but I can hit the red all day while working in the DAW, and not hear a single "clip".

If I just play back clipped files outside of the DAW but through the converters...I can hear the clips.

I can confirm this later tonight, as I don't work in the red normally, but I do know that I've cranked the DAW MB fader to the end, all red...and not *heard* the clipping.

It'll probably sound more constricted than distorted but I bet if you clip the heck out of your master bus you'll be able to hear it.
 
I wouldn't turn down the whole drum track unless the whole drum track is too loud. You're looking for the outliers. Drums are peaky, but why is there a volume spike in that one particular snare hit that is way louder than any of the others? Is there a musical reason for it? If not, I'd zoom in on the track, clip around the offending hit, and turn it down manually. Could also be that several things are happening at that particular moment--a snare hit, a lounder-than-average bass not, a crash hit...etc. You don't want to flatten everything out, just tame some of the excessive excursions. Listen and make sure the results are musical.
 
I wouldn't turn down the whole drum track unless the whole drum track is too loud. You're looking for the outliers. Drums are peaky, but why is there a volume spike in that one particular snare hit that is way louder than any of the others? Is there a musical reason for it? If not, I'd zoom in on the track, clip around the offending hit, and turn it down manually. Could also be that several things are happening at that particular moment--a snare hit, a lounder-than-average bass not, a crash hit...etc. You don't want to flatten everything out, just tame some of the excessive excursions. Listen and make sure the results are musical.

Great, thank you
 
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