My mixes are always softer than commercial music of the same genre

[XeroTalent]

I admit I'm a beginner at mixing... but I can get everything sounding pretty damn good, all the instruments have their own space, and the song as a whole sounds great.

Right now, the result of my mix is about as loud as it will go... I'm already peaking about +2.5dB on my Master fader. All my other tracks have wiggle room, except the kick and snare which is just under peaking... I've been using those tracks as my baseline to revolve the other faders around.

But if I put my songs in a playlist with other commercial music of the same genre (rock, hard rock), then I notice that my songs are significantly lower in volume than the commercial music.

I know about the whole 'loudness wars', but is this a result of my recording techniques, microphones, mixing, or are most commercial rock tracks cranked to 11? I don't want to push my Master any higher for fear of distorting or generating ear fatigue.

Just curious if anyone else has had this issue, and if/how you overcame it so that your music is roughly the same volume as commercial tracks.

Thanks!

 

[Mo Facta]

When yous say "+2.5dB" do you mean at the master bus inside a DAW? Or on an analog mixer?

Cheers

 

[RAMI]

That's totally normal. First of all, you're mixing WAAAAYYYYYY too hot. Nothing should be going over 0db, or anywhere close to it, including your master. You should have lots of headroom for every instrument, you shouldn't be near 0db on any track.

What's happening is that you're confusing mixing with one aspect of mastering. Your mixes should be peaking WAAAAYYYY below 0db....like -10db is fine. Don't worry about volume while mixing. Turn everything down, turn up your monitors and just worry about getting a good mix.

Once you have a mix you're happy with, mix it down (or render, whatever your DAW calls it)bring the stereo file into a new project and that's where you bring the volume up, usually with a compressor/liniter, but that's a whole other discussion.

Right now, the first thing I'd do is bring all your individual tracks down by about 10db and just worry about getting a good sounding mix.

 

[RAMI]

When yous say "+2.5dB" do you mean at the master bus inside a DAW? Or on an analog mixer?

Cheers

Yeah, good point/question. My post above was made under the assumption that we're talking digital DAW.

 

[Mo Facta]

Yeah I figured we best know that first. If he's at +2.5dBu on an analog mixer that's perfectly acceptable.

+2.5dBfs is, of course, not.

Cheers

 

[Thurgood]

Xero. It is not your microphones. Rami and Mo are correct in regards to the ITB DBFS levels as well as the analog desk levels. If you are working in the box 0.0 dbfs is your absolute max before clipping. Do not go there. -12 dbfs is a good rms level for a mix (ok maybe that is a little low). What you are probably experiencing is a low perceived loudness. (see Sound on sound articles on loudness). Check out the many published articles by Bob Katz. Commercial recordings in the hard rock genre are heavily compressed/limited such that the RMS levels vs Peak levels are very close. This is why they sound LOUD. I have not listened to your mixes so I cannot point out specifics nonetheless +2.5 DBFS or so is too hot. If you want to make your mixes LOUDER raise the average level and peak limit. Personally I hate that as it leaves little room for a Pro mastering person to do his or her stuff. For grins and client take home stuff I will smash (bus comp and Limit) the heck out of a mix. If you want your mix louder... turn up your monitors. Oh BTW, solo your kick, bass and snare and take a look at your master bus. "Sounds" to me that your headroom is being eaten up by the low end. Back that S**t off a bit and rebalance your mix. My .02. Be well all.

 

[Thurgood]

Let me clarify: I hope your snare is not eating up /occupying your low end but you might want to check anyway.

 

[XeroTalent]

When yous say "+2.5dB" do you mean at the master bus inside a DAW? Or on an analog mixer?

Cheers

Sorry, should have stated... this is in my DAW.

That's totally normal. First of all, you're mixing WAAAAYYYYYY too hot. Nothing should be going over 0db, or anywhere close to it, including your master. You should have lots of headroom for every instrument, you shouldn't be near 0db on any track.

What's happening is that you're confusing mixing with one aspect of mastering. Your mixes should be peaking WAAAAYYYY below 0db....like -10db is fine. Don't worry about volume while mixing. Turn everything down, turn up your monitors and just worry about getting a good mix.

Once you have a mix you're happy with, mix it down (or render, whatever your DAW calls it)bring the stereo file into a new project and that's where you bring the volume up, usually with a compressor/liniter, but that's a whole other discussion.

Right now, the first thing I'd do is bring all your individual tracks down by about 10db and just worry about getting a good sounding mix.

That low, really? I also had no idea about rendering the file at a really low volume and then importing it into a seperate project and applying compression and whatnot. Do you have anything I can read (tutorial, etc) about that process?

Let me clarify: I hope your snare is not eating up /occupying your low end but you might want to check anyway.

The snare is sitting in the low-mids.


It seems my workflow needs a little work. Is there a good step-by-step guide that someone can point me to for this type of thing? Specifically importing the stereo mix into a new project and using a compressor/limiter? That is completely new to me, and I've been doing it wrong all along it seems

Many thanks

 

[RAMI]

That low, really?

Believe it or not, what seems "low" is actually "normal".

I'll try to find a link or two on this kind of thing, but I'm at work right now, so it might not be until later. I think MASSIVE MASTER has a couple of great articles on this subject.

 

[XeroTalent]

Believe it or not, what seems "low" is actually "normal".

I'll try to find a link or two on this kind of thing, but I'm at work right now, so it might not be until later. I think MASSIVE MASTER has a couple of great articles on this subject.

Ah ok, thank you.

That does seem really low to me. If I put all the instruments so that the master is ~-10dB, it'll be super quiet, but again, I'm comparing to a commercial song.

So basically I need to bring everything WAY down, mix it so the Master bus peaks around -10dB, render that to a stereo wav file, import that into a new project and then bring the volume up in that project? And apply a compressor/limiter to that one file? Is that right?

If I render the mix that quietly, will I lose all the soft nuances of the instruments?

 

[sixer2007]

Ah ok, thank you.

That does seem really low to me. If I put all the instruments so that the master is ~-10dB, it'll be super quiet, but again, I'm comparing to a commercial song.

For comparisons, bring your pro track into the session and turn it down to the level of your mix. Now you can try to match it in terms of sound and style. Don't try to raise your track to it, that will cause a mess, as everyone has pointed out.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Only chipping in cos RAMI said he's working.

So basically I need to bring everything WAY down, mix it so the Master bus peaks around -10dB, render that to a stereo wav file, import that into a new project and then bring the volume up in that project? And apply a compressor/limiter to that one file? Is that right?

Pretty much, yeah.
If loudness is the goal, the work should go into how you mix, NOT how loud you mix.
Some mixes just won't ever sound good loud due to stray peaks or the way the instruments are balanced.

This is NOT professional advice, but I mix at the appropriate levels and once in a while I bang an L2 on the master and crank it just to gauge how good or bad my mix will sound later down the line.
It's probably a good enough reference for someone at your/my level.

If I render the mix that quietly, will I lose all the soft nuances of the instruments?

Nope, as long as you don't take the piss. If your master is peaking around -10 you're not going to have a problem.

 

[RAMI]

That does seem really low to me. If I put all the instruments so that the master is ~-10dB, it'll be super quiet, but again, I'm comparing to a commercial song.?

Exactly. That's the point. Those commecial mixes have been mastered, too. Those mixes were as "low" as your should be before they were mastered. That's why it's two separate processes. Mixing is mixing. Mastering is another process that's performed on the final mix. Everyone of us that does it the "proper" way has to really turn up their monitors during the tracking and mixing portion of finishing a song, that's totally normal.


Just to clarify, there is a lot more to mastering than just making it loud, but that happens to be what we're discussing here.

 

[XeroTalent]

For comparisons, bring your pro track into the session and turn it down to the level of your mix. Now you can try to match it in terms of sound and style. Don't try to raise your track to it, that will cause a mess, as everyone has pointed out.

That's a great idea, I'll do that for sure

Pretty much, yeah.
If loudness is the goal, the work should go into how you mix, NOT how loud you mix.
Some mixes just won't ever sound good loud due to stray peaks or the way the instruments are balanced.

Loudness isn't my goal. Right now, if I shuffle my song in with a playlist, my song is way softer than the others in terms of volume. I just want it to be on the same volume level as other music without distorting at this point, not necessarily loud for the sake of being loud.. know what I mean?

This is NOT professional advice, but I mix at the appropriate levels and once in a while I bang an L2 on the master and crank it just to gauge how good or bad my mix will sound later down the line.
It's probably a good enough reference for someone at your/my level.

Aside question - what's an L2?

Exactly. That's the point. Those commecial mixes have been mastered, too. Those mixes were as "low" as your should be before they were mastered. That's why it's two separate processes. Mixing is mixing. Mastering is another process that's performed on the final mix. Everyone of us that does it the "proper" way has to really turn up their monitors during the tracking and mixing portion of finishing a song, that's totally normal.

Just to clarify, there is a lot more to mastering than just making it loud, but that happens to be what we're discussing here.

Ok, this is great info - I'm learning a lot here

When I get home, I'll dial everything back with the aim that the Master never goes above -10dB. I've got a pretty good balance between each instrument right now, so I'll just sweep everything down -10dB and go from there... do you think that would be a good starting point, and from there tweak as necessary?

Finally, any recommendations on a Compressor/Limiter VST that would be appropriate for the mastering phase?

Again, thank you all for your help

 

[Massive Master]

Try "G-Clip" -- Simple, effective, free (bonus).

You don't necessarily need 10dB of headroom -- *SOME* clear headroom -- whether it's 10dB, 20dB or even 2dB, of clear, "natural" (no limiting or excessive compression on the main buss) headroom. Let the dynamics of the mix be the dynamics the mix is asking for.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of time to screw it up later.

Tracking on the other hand -- 10dB of headroom (which isn't 10dB of "real" headroom, it's just 10dB before your digital circuitry fails) is about the top level I'd want any individual track to be. Same with mixing.

Ahhh... to go back to pre-loudness-war levels... Maybe one of these days...

#UsedToLoveMyJob...

 

[Steenamaroo]

Loudness isn't my goal. Right now, if I shuffle my song in with a playlist, my song is way softer than the others in terms of volume. I just want it to be on the same volume level as other music without distorting at this point, not necessarily loud for the sake of being loud.. know what I mean?

That's exactly what I mean by "If loudness is your goal".
I get that it's not just for the sake of it but you want your mixes to compete with commercial music, in terms of volume.

Aside question - what's an L2?

It's a limiter.
I use it as a crude check to see if my mixes is going to stand up to the kind of compression that'll make them on a (volume) level with commercial music.

Like, If I put an L2 on a bring it to the limits of destroying my mix and it's still too quiet, there's something badly wrong with my mix.
If it doesn't take much to put me on par with commercial tracks, and the sound doesn't suffer, I'm doing pretty well.
Like I say though, I'm just a home studio guy; That's not pro advice.

 

[XeroTalent]

Try "G-Clip" -- Simple, effective, free (bonus).

You don't necessarily need 10dB of headroom -- *SOME* clear headroom -- whether it's 10dB, 20dB or even 2dB, of clear, "natural" (no limiting or excessive compression on the main buss) headroom. Let the dynamics of the mix be the dynamics the mix is asking for.

Unfortunately, there's plenty of time to screw it up later.

Tracking on the other hand -- 10dB of headroom (which isn't 10dB of "real" headroom, it's just 10dB before your digital circuitry fails) is about the top level I'd want any individual track to be. Same with mixing.

Ahhh... to go back to pre-loudness-war levels... Maybe one of these days...

#UsedToLoveMyJob...

So my individual instrument tracks shouldn't peak at more than -10dB, but my Master bus can go higher, just not above 0dB... is that right?

Wow... all this time I've been playing with the notion that as long as it's under 0dB on the instrument track, it's fine, as long as the Master isn't peaking at 0dB.

 

[Steenamaroo]

So my individual instrument tracks shouldn't peak at more than -10dB, but my Master bus can go higher, just not above 0dB... is that right?

Wow... all this time I've been playing with the notion that as long as it's under 0dB on the instrument track, it's fine, as long as the Master isn't peaking at 0dB.

Tracking levels and mixing levels are two different things.
Track so the input doesn't exceed -10db @ peak, but then mix so that the master does the same.
The more tracks you have, the more the faders will be pulled down.

 

[XeroTalent]

Tracking levels and mixing levels are two different things.
Track so the input doesn't exceed -10db @ peak, but then mix so that the master does the same.
The more tracks you have, the more the faders will be pulled down.

Wow, then I've really been doing it wrong. All my tracking has revolved around a 0dB peak too... as in, when I play a guitar part, as long as it's below 0dB I thought I was fine :/ The majority of my raw drums/guitar/bass inputs are close to 0dB.

Track so the input doesn't exceed -10db @ peak, but then mix so that the master does the same.

So when the mix is complete, the Master bus should not exceed -10dB? Is that correct?

Just looking for guidelines, not necessarily rules

 

[Steenamaroo]

So when the mix is complete, the Master bus should not exceed -10dB? Is that correct?

Just looking for guidelines, not necessarily rules

As a guideline, yeah. That's probably not bad.

I don't know why but my master channel seems to end up peaking closer to -18.
Maybe I'm too careful but it's never had a negative effect that I've been aware of.