My biggest issues with mixing is EQing and levels

SincerelyAND

New member
I get frustrated with mixing. I mix on a cheap pair of studio monitors which sounds way too clean so after I'm done, I re-mix it on regular computer speakers because it always sounds muddier on them due to the bass and lows.

But for my vocals to sit on top of the track sound strong enough (over mixed down beats), it always seems like I need to over-compress and add too much mids. And at the same time, I feel I always need to drop wayyyyyyyy too much of the lows.

I want a clean but wide sound. That's the hardest part. I can't figure that shit out. SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP.
 
You have to have good speakers, When you look at speakers look at the frequency range of them, 40 hz to 20 Khz is acceptable, It's going to be very hard to find a perfectly flat set of speakers (20hz-20khz)

The secret to EQ is to not over use it. You want to EQ so the voice and instruments sound as natural as possible(Unless of course your doing something unusual with the sound) and if you boost or cut anything on your EQ you'll only want to go 2 or 3 decibels either way, if you go more than that there's something wrong in the way it was recorded in the first place and should be re-recorded.

Your mix isn't going to sound like a pro mix right away, it should sound close, but the mastering engineer will polish it off to sound pro.
 
Don't mix on headphones.

Almost all of your problems will be solved.

I mix vocals down on headphones but the final mix is through computer speakers. I don't think that's the issue.

I can't figure out a way to have the vocals sound strong enough without putting in too much mids and compressing too much 'til the vocals sound muddy and unnatural. I need to figure out how to have the big strong sound while not compromising the sound of the beat too much. If the vocals are too loud and the track is too low, that sounds stupid too. Then if I compress again, it just makes it sound more muddy.

I drop frequencies out the ass too. So I don't get where my issues are coming from. I even take out of the beat a lotta times to make space for the vocals. I don't wanna OD on it and then it sounds too stripped either. So I'm tryna figure out where I'm supposed to go from here.
 
You have to have good speakers, When you look at speakers look at the frequency range of them, 40 hz to 20 Khz is acceptable, It's going to be very hard to find a perfectly flat set of speakers (20hz-20khz)

The secret to EQ is to not over use it. You want to EQ so the voice and instruments sound as natural as possible(Unless of course your doing something unusual with the sound) and if you boost or cut anything on your EQ you'll only want to go 2 or 3 decibels either way, if you go more than that there's something wrong in the way it was recorded in the first place and should be re-recorded.

Your mix isn't going to sound like a pro mix right away, it should sound close, but the mastering engineer will polish it off to sound pro.

I don't 100% agree with this because it's pretty crucial to use a low pass filter when you EQ. And I must be going overboard then with the EQing. I drop A LOT with a small bandwidth. It's frustrating as shit.

If I don't add a ton of mids, it feels like my vocals aren't strong enough. Do I have to pull that many frequencies from the beat? I don't think that's the case. Aggghhhh... I've been doin' this shit for ears and can't seem to get myself mixed down the way I really want to.
 
Turn the beats down. If they have already been "mastered" by some fool who thinks you need to master beats, that is probably your entire problem.

The easiest way to tell if the beat has been limited to death is if it is always sitting at 0dbfs. If that is the case, you need to turn it down enough to get your vocals above it. Or get the beat before the goofball made it too loud and compressed.
 
Turn the beats down. If they have already been "mastered" by some fool who thinks you need to master beats, that is probably your entire problem.
+1 on this. The best results are obtained when you mix *all of your tracks* together at the same time and then master the mixdown as a single mix. There's noting wrong with using a pre-mastered beat to rap to, but when it comes to mixing, trying to lay a vocal over a pre-mastered beat is like trying to pour wet concrete on top of a flat, fully-hardened layer of already solid concrete; they just ride on top of each other and don't really make a good solid connection all their own.

And also +1 on the loudspeaker and room acoustic quality. if you can't translate your monitors properly, you'll never get a mix that works outside your room.

G.
 
+1 on this. The best results are obtained when you mix *all of your tracks* together at the same time and then master the mixdown as a single mix. There's noting wrong with using a pre-mastered beat to rap to, but when it comes to mixing, trying to lay a vocal over a pre-mastered beat is like trying to pour wet concrete on top of a flat, fully-hardened layer of already solid concrete; they just ride on top of each other and don't really make a good solid connection all their own.

And also +1 on the loudspeaker and room acoustic quality. if you can't translate your monitors properly, you'll never get a mix that works outside your room.

G.

But rappers rap on other rappers' beats all the time. You have to pull frequencies out of the beat to create space for the vocals. I just don't do it right.

Need more tips.
 
I mix vocals down on headphones but the final mix is through computer speakers. I don't think that's the issue.

Actually...that IS the issue....using computer speakers.

I don't 100% agree with this because it's pretty crucial to use a low pass filter when you EQ.

It's NOT crucial if you have good monitors that can playback fullbandwidth.

You want a lot of punch and a wide mix...then get good monitors (maybe even add a sub) if you want hear those DEEP LOWS...and full bandwidth.

But keep in mind...there's only so much "room" to work in.
If you ARE cranking the beats...then the vocals will need to be that much louder, and so on...and then you crank up the other stuff and the vocals get small again...etc.

You have to hear all your elements properly, and you ain't going to do it on computer speakers at louder levels.
 
Actually...that IS the issue....using computer speakers.

It's NOT crucial if you have good monitors that can playback fullbandwidth.]video[/video]

Whether you have good monitors or not, there's going to be lows that you won't be able to hear on studio monitors because one of the elements of a good set of studio monitors is to have a clean sound. But then again, you did mention the woofers.

You want a lot of punch and a wide mix...then get good monitors (maybe even add a sub) if you want hear those DEEP LOWS...and full bandwidth.

But keep in mind...there's only so much "room" to work in.
If you ARE cranking the beats...then the vocals will need to be that much louder, and so on...and then you crank up the other stuff and the vocals get small again...etc.

You have to hear all your elements properly, and you ain't going to do it on computer speakers at louder levels.

I know. That's why I'm tryna figure out how to make room and still fit the vocals in WHILE keeping the volume of the beat/instrumental high enough that it's not being run over by the vocal. Yet, I wanna create enough room that it's not going to sound like it's fighting each other yet sitting nicely within a pocket. That's the hard part, but it can be done. I've seen it done and I know engineers that can do it.

I just don't wanna pay that money for mixtape type joints. I'm getting pro work done on my album tho'.
 
Whether you have good monitors or not, there's going to be lows that you won't be able to hear on studio monitors because one of the elements of a good set of studio monitors is to have a clean sound. But then again, you did mention the woofers.

Not sure why you think that?
I've got Mackie 824 monitors that go WAY DOWN LOW without a sub, and still have a "clean sound".

That's why I'm tryna figure out how to make room and still fit the vocals in WHILE keeping the volume of the beat/instrumental high enough that it's not being run over by the vocal. Yet, I wanna create enough room that it's not going to sound like it's fighting each other yet sitting nicely within a pocket.

With good monitors, you will be able to really hear what is going on...you can't on computer speakers, and you shouldn't try with headphones.
Once you can hear what is really going on...work on your panning and levels before you get EQ/compression happy.
But like I said...there comes a point where you can't just have EVERYTHING-LOUD!!! It just won't work. :D
 
Not sure why you think that?
I've got Mackie 824 monitors that go WAY DOWN LOW without a sub, and still have a "clean sound".



With good monitors, you will be able to really hear what is going on...you can't on computer speakers, and you shouldn't try with headphones.
Once you can hear what is really going on...work on your panning and levels before you get EQ/compression happy.
But like I said...there comes a point where you can't just have EVERYTHING-LOUD!!! It just won't work. :D

I know. That's why I keep sayin' you have to make a pocket. But that's where I"m struggling at.
 
But rappers rap on other rappers' beats all the time.
And it almost always sucks when they do, whether you want to believe it or not. You just don't have teh ears yet to tell.

Sincerely, you've gotten an entire thread of good, solid advice from a lot of people with a lot of experience here, and you just keep rejecting it all out-of-hand. If you know what the right answer really is, then you wouldn't need to ask the question.

You can't just "cut out a pocket" with a little EQ unless you have the monitor chain and ears to do it, and even then it's the lazy-assed, wrong way to go about it because the result usually sounds like amateurish crap.

You have neither the monitors, the room, nor especially the ears yet, to have your mixes properly translate outside of your room, and certainly don't have them well enough to try and force-fit your own vocals onto a poorly pre-mastered "beat". Like it or not, you should to address those issues if you are really interested in getting it right.

G.
 
And it almost always sucks when they do, whether you want to believe it or not. You just don't have teh ears yet to tell.

Sincerely, you've gotten an entire thread of good, solid advice from a lot of people with a lot of experience here, and you just keep rejecting it all out-of-hand. If you know what the right answer really is, then you wouldn't need to ask the question.

You can't just "cut out a pocket" with a little EQ unless you have the monitor chain and ears to do it, and even then it's the lazy-assed, wrong way to go about it because the result usually sounds like amateurish crap.

You have neither the monitors, the room, nor especially the ears yet, to have your mixes properly translate outside of your room, and certainly don't have them well enough to try and force-fit your own vocals onto a poorly pre-mastered "beat". Like it or not, you should to address those issues if you are really interested in getting it right.

G.

That's funny you talk about beats that aren't mixed correctly when they're industry beats that are mixed down by professionals. And I've been in pro studios and have heard actually DAMN good mixes over industry beats. What's your point? It's obviously not going to be as good as having the entire beat tracked out but that's not what I'm asking for now is it?

And obviously I don't have the answers but I know what I"m reaching for and what you're telling me isn't giong to get me there because you're making it sound like an impossibility. Sorry, but I don't see anywhere where I talk about trying to get a mix that's album cut quality where every sound was tracked separately and a pocket was created for the vocal to sit in, but the last time I checked, rappers have gotten on other rappers instrumentals and have even gotten radio play on those type of records. Your point?!?!?

I'm asking a simple question... Probably not as easy to answer but the question is pretty damn straight forward. How do I find that pocket and fit my vocals in there. And don't tell me what I do and don't have an ear for because you obviously don't know. Obviously, if I didn't have an ear for it then I wouldn't be able to hear that it does not sound right. Obviously, I know what I want the sound to be but the problem is getting there. YES, I LACK THERE. Happy?

Now if anyone has any input that will actually help me get to that point, please help.
 
Now if anyone has any input that will actually help me get to that point, please help.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to agree with Glen. For being new here, you are getting a lot more replies than usual.... and you're getting really good advice from some people with really good ears. It's sad to see you seem to be throwing it all away, while waiting for advice you seem to have already selected out. Ya ain't gonna get it that way.

My advice is to chill-out, and read their responses again - considering that some of these people have been doing this for years. I'm far from being a pro, but I realize good advice when I read it.
 
Listen AND, don't start shoveling that "you don't know me" line; it only makes you sound like a guest on Jerry Springer. The fact is, if you had the ears, you'd know the problem and you wouldn't have to ask the question. That's how we know where you're coming from. And if you knew the answer, you wouldn't be asking the question, so don't be assuming you already know more than we do about what the right and wrong answers are.

Do yourself a favor, dial back the attitude for a minute and read this and think about it before you respond:

If there is going to be such a thing as a "pocket" (really a misnomer, but we'll run with it for a minute anyway, just for sake of explanation) in a commercial beat, it's either going to be pre-engineered into the beat, or you gotta chisel one out for yourself. In real life it's usually going to be some combination of both of those possibilities.

Now, for the first part, the only way to find a pocket that exists is with your ears. There's no technical visual way using frequency analysis or spectral analysis or by looking at waveforms or any other such way to find it. It takes what is typically called "critical listening" or "analytical listening" skills. This requires having the ear to recognize the parts of the beat, their purpose in the overall arrangement, and which parts of the spectrum they are meant to dominate, and designing your vocal(s) - sound profile and arrangement - around them.

Nobody can tell you in a forum post how to do that; it's a skill that has to be tapped (if you're a natural) or learned and developed (if you're not a natural).

As far as the second part, usually any "pocket" has to be stretched and massaged, because there is no way that the creator of the original beat can predict just what your voice and intentions actually are like. One common way to attack that is via the use of differential EQ to emphasize the strengths and weaknesses that are already there. This means taking the frequencies where the pocket(s) seem to want to be (based upon part 1), slightly de-emphasizing them in the beat (gentle slopes of just a couple of dB) and slightly emphasizing them in your main vocal track 9again, just gentle slopes of just a couple of dB).

Note that it's not necessarily one big pocket that you're working with, it may be a couple or more mini-pockets spread across the spectrum. And it's not the same for every beat, meaning you gotta go back to part 1 and *use your ears* to figure out just where such "pockets" should be. There's no way around that, and no way we or anyone else can answer that for you.

Now, it's also important to remember that those "commecrial beats", if they are pre-mastered, are not something that you just lay vocals on and you're done and on the radio, like you think. If you want it one right and want it to sound good, some level of de-mastering of the original beat is usually in order so you can properly re-mix with the vocals and then have the mix re-masterd. The differential EQ only scratches the surface of that process.

And finally, no matter how good your ears may be, they are only as good as your room and your monitors, and even then your mix will only be as good as your ears' ability to "translate" - i.e. to know that if it sounds like "A" in your studio, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will sound like "A" out in the real world. The trick is learning whether it really will sound like "B", "C" or "D". The better your monitoring situation and room, the easier that translation will be.

In short, by deciding to make your own music instead of actually taking on an engineer and (real) producer to assist you, you have taken on a task that has much more to it than just ripping a beat and rapping over it and being done with it. You got some work, some learning and some practice ahead of you. Any attitude otherwise is just going to hold you back and not get you ahead.

G.
 
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Very eloquently and gently put.
SincerelyAND, just consider what has been said. If it is to be eventually thrown out, fine. But at least consider it.
 
Dude, just like a typical stubborn noob who asks questions but won't accept the correct answers, you're rejecting the only good advice you can get.

Read what Glen said again....and again......He's telling you the truth...but you want an easy fix. That's typical, too.

Put your ego aside and try to learn something for once.
 
In short, by deciding to make your own music instead of actually taking on an engineer and (real) producer to assist you, you have taken on a task that has much more to it than just ripping a beat and rapping over it and being done with it. You got some work, some learning and some practice ahead of you. Any attitude otherwise is just going to hold you back and not get you ahead.

G.

Wow. Very well said. Thank you, Glen.

That answer, in fact, helped me answer a lot of questions I've had about the whole "pocket" theory. I love this forum.
 
+1 to Glen and Rami. I can relate to your frustrations, though. Hip Hop often seems like it should have a simple approach, but my experience has been quite the contrary....I first started reading posts on this forum looking for quicker answers to the problems I was facing (managing bass and achieving a good balance between vocals and the beat are my BIGGEST problems. I feel your frustration more than I can say). We've all been there, I imagine...the people who are giving you feedback have a lot of experience..I know how frustrating it can be when you think you're THAT close to a professional mix, only to find that you're still miles off...but a quick fix that doesn't do the trick is only going to leave you feeling the same way you are now. I no longer try to rap over pre-mixed beats (PARTICULARLY when they're limited to the point of being a solid brick. If my vox are going to be heard, most of the beat isn't. Or the other way around). Those professional tracks you hear are tracked out, sent to an engineer, and sculpted to fit the vox WITHIN the session (not sure about my terminology there). The beat may sound DOPE on its own, but it NEEDS to have its individual elements adjusted to create the "pocket" for the vocals you're referencing. Trying to do that to the whole beat with and EQ is like Michaelangelo trying to sculpt with a bazooka. I'll shut up now.:D
 
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