A more advanced mixing question for "those in the know"

[tubedude]

He Sjoko, Sonus, Bear, whoever else....
We have some decent threads going on mixing, getting hot levels during tracking, mastering, etc, but I want to get into mixing a tad bit deeper, and tread on the complimentary EQ topic and Eq-ing in general. I tend to have a good ear for mixing and getting a nice wide sound, but more often than not I'm tracking heavy chunky guitars over thick bass lines and kicks, and I end up with alot of freqs bashing each other, and therefore, alot of mud. I'm sure this is true for many.
I'm gonna post SOME of the notes that i've taken over the last 6 months (yes, i keep notes, a separate page in a notebook for damn near every subject, very helpful) and we can discuss them, praise them, bash them and hopefully, add to them.
1) More often than not, cut EQ instead of add. Reduces phasefunk. Words to live by?
2)kick vs. bass- dip apprx -4db @ 400hz (all freqs and db levels are apprx from here on) and +3 @5khz on the kick, and +2db @400hz on the bass guit. This makes some room for both to breathe. -2db between 150-300hz on kick also.
3)Guitar- apply high pass filter and cut everything below around 80-100hz or so. +2db at 3khz.
4)snare- +3@7khz, +2@100khz to increase snap and fullness. Dip @ 800hz to add some extra room for bass frequencies.
5)Toms- Make sure ringing freqs arent competing too much, cut mids 2-4 db above fundamental. Many other notes on these, may post them later.
6)overheads- low cut at about 300hz, add at about 10khz to increase sizzle
7) hats- hi-shelf boost around 8khz, steep low cut at about 100-200hz.
My notes are huge, and these are just a few things to get a discussion started. Alot of the freqs I mentioned go hand in hand with a similar boost or cut on another instrument, although I didnt list everything for sake of writing a book. Keep in mind that some of these may just be starting points, and they arent religious by any means. I find it does help to get alot of the humdrum out of tracks where its not needed (like hats)
I'd like to get some ideas from everyone and try them out. I have some good EQ links written down somewhere, I'll post them soon.
Hopefully I just started a fire.
Peace,
Paul

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

My take...

1) Yup - words to live by... (as far as I'm concerned)

2) I don't think there are blanket EQ settings like that. The idea is to accomplish the "...makes some room for both to breathe..." objective. If no EQ is needed because the tracks are already well-defined/well-recorded, then don't simply add it because of a generality! I think it depends completely on the application. Ears first, EQ later only as needed!

3) I use low-cut on just about everything except bass, kick and sometimes toms. Few vocalists, guitarists or other instrumentalists produce frequencies below 80hz, so cutting below that cleans up a lot of mud and doesn't needlessly eat into your mix's headroom. As far as EQ - again EFEqL....

4) EFEqL.... I still think it's dangerous to provide "presets" - all depends on the context of the tracks.

5) Gotta tame that ring - but I tend to do that as it's being recorded (at the drums themselves or via placement), as opposed to trying to "fix it in the mix" via EQ.

6) I would definitely low-cut... add sizzle only if necessary!

7) Same as 6!

I don't know there Paul - there isn't much there to "start a fire about!" Your notes seem pretty sound (ha! ged'dit? ) overall.......... but I'm sure SJoko2 and Sonusman can change that!!!!!!!!!!

Bruce

 

[tubedude]

well...

It just seems that theres so much more to know about EQ'ing than most of us know, or are willing to let on to. I read alot of articles with these "big time" guys talking about cutting frequencies to make room for this and that, and knowing how to do it with surgical precision, yadayadayada... Its almost like the magicians code or something.. "oh, I can do that, lets change the subject" And the truth is, you listen to these money productions, and theres SOMETHING huge about them, and I refuse to contribute all of it to equipment. These mixes sound wide and fat in part due to someones skill in EQ'ing to define elements in the mix. Highs just right, lows just right... everything... just right....
What about spectrum analyzers? I'm sure all of us can look at the pretty lights and pretend we REALLY know what we're looking at, but few of us know, or even bother to try to know. How is this thing used? Whats considered the "right" frequencies on particular tracks or mixes, and what do we want to rid ourselves of? Things like this COULD be the turning point for some of us, but, maybe it wouldn't make a bit of difference at all.
I can't say til I know, I guess.
I'll let everyone in on the secret when I DO know EVERYTHING. Or, maybe not. Wouldn't wanna lose my seat at the Mixers union...
Paul

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Here's the big secret.......

YOUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!

Well-recorded tracks, good monitoring system, and knowing what to listen for and the EQ almost takes care of itself!

A lot of times EQ gets used to "fix" problems in badly recorded tracks, otherwise it's for tweaking to let some tracks breath when surrounded by the others...

On the other hand - maybe there is another big secret, and no one's let me in on it either!

 

[tubedude]

hmmm...

I guess this DIDN'T attract anyone like I thought it would... back to looking for the secrets that hard way
Thanks Bear!

 

[sonusman]

No big secrets in audio really. A LOT of fundamental info you need, but nothing earth shattering.

Understand the Fletcher/Munson Relative Loudness curves, and think how they might come into play and you are half way there.

I remember way back when, I was a very young and inexperienced soundman. I worked for the biggest sound company in the area. I always thought the monitor engineers were just "looking good" when they were tuning monitors and calling our freq's to turn down. I couldn't hear what they were hearing! I thought it was a sham! But they ALWAYS got the compliments about the monitors from the artist. I on the other hand would get a lot of requests to "turn me up". What was the difference in what I was doing and what these guys with a lot more experience were doing?

Well, I know a few "tricks", but they are nowhere as earth shattering as you would think.

I have learned to do as little eq as possible until I hear a really bad something or another. I learned that you must "excite" key frequencies in the monitors to be able to assess if they are maybe a bit too hot or not. I learned that vocalists don't like a "crispy" sound to their monitors usually, unless they have a very "dull" voice (not many big time singers suffer from this). I learned to "tune" monitors to about 3 or 4 dB louder then I anticipate them needing to be.

Tricks? No. Basically common sense that comes from experience. If you think as the performer while engineering, you will begin to understand how the fundamentals can help you help the artist perform well.

An example:

Many drummers assume that because THEY can hear all their snare hits that in the recording, all the snare hits are shining through. NOT the case! These drummers tend to be overly dynamic in a pop recording, and this reeks havoc in the mix. You have about half the snare hits that sound great, and the other half that are either too soft or too loud. In either case, the hits just don't contribute what the guy THINKS they do to the song.

What these guys don't really know is that it is the WHOLE arrangement of instruments that create the dynamics in recording, NOT him blasting a certain snare hit that manages to overload the preamp, because the engineer set's it kind of high to get a good level to tape. Once the drummer "whacks" that one snare hit, no more lush snare sound. That is replaced by a nasty distortion on tape!

I usually pull the drummer into the control room and ask them if they can hear all the snare hits evenly. I intentionally turn down the snare a bit to exagerate things. Without fail, they learn that in pop recordings, the snare needs to be very consistent to sound good in the mix always. Whether they have the skill and endurance to play another take with consistent snare hits is totally dependent upon how much they practice, and have control over their playing. Some adjust well and perform great takes, others I have to do some special things to to make it all work.

This is just a common sense thing that comes from dealing with way too many artists who don't have "studio ears". Those ears that scrutinize EVERY note.

Anyway.....EQ is no "trick" really. Like the monitor example I used above, you just have to learn to identify freq's and determine if one or more are too loud or two soft in the track and the mix. You make adjustments based upon that. I could say that cutting a kick drum somewhere between 200Hz and 1KHz will "clear up" the kick drum, but that is not always the case. I just mixed a band tonight were because of limitations on where I could place the kick mic, I had to cut 2KHz!!! Mostly unheard of in live mixing.

So, I really think that Bruce covered the "tricks" per se. USE YOUR EARS!!! That is the trick. Don't get used to a bad sound. Work towards solving sounds that don't have in them what you want while tracking, and you will find that you are eq'ing far less during mix. THAT is the trick really....

Ed

 

[GT]

Eq, to my ears is stricktly for removing coloration, most likely to try and make your mix sound good on most speakers.

Don't forget that speakers are a very weak link. So to me you should try to eq more for playback through the weak link, than anything else.

You may think that you are EQ'ing your mix, when in all actuality you may be EQing your speakers.

Eq, to me is like the focus on a camera, only your focusing with your ears. Now the hard part, there is only one true in focus setting, and you've got lots of sliders to try to achieve it. Focusing a camera is much easier. Good Eq is the most important part of a good mix.